Disturbing math conversation...

[swimmermom3]

This evening Swimmer Dude informed me that next year he wanted to use the very best curriculum possible for Algebra 1. I pointed out that his results on today's work in Saxon 8/7 were less than stellar. "That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":001_huh: My plan is to use Foerster's Algebra 1 with the Math Without Borders CD. I'm good to go right? This choice will honor his request and not make him prematurely gray?

 

Swimmer Dude is actually do well with Saxon 8/7 but I have no desire to use their Algebra curriculum like I have with his older siblings. I was tempted to look at Dolciani but the lack of teacher support materials makes me nervous. As a math teacher, I am probably standing in the middle of the road: 4 years of high school math, 1 year of college calculus, neither love nor loathe math, and can usually work out the answer. If I don't know the "why" of it, I try to find someone who can help me.

 

We plan to move into Geometry in 8th grade. Is there anything else I should look at for a motivated student? Also, while he hopes to build a computer empire, he prefers as much of his school work to be delivered by book.

[forty-two]

Gelfand's Algebra book might make a worthy supplement - it has a pretty good quality-to-quantity ratio with its problems. Plus it is pretty inexpensive and promotes mathy thinking.

[Nicole M]

No advice on the Algebra (we're using NEM), but tell your young man that I am wasting my middle age doing math problems one chapter ahead of my son, precisely because I wasted my youth not doing math. (Remember, I am the one whose son gasped when he heard I had been in the honors program in college. "What, that surprised you?" I asked, indignantly. "Well, considering your math scores on the SAT, Mom, yes, I am rather surprised....")

 

I think his 10 challenging problems idea, though, is a good one. I used Saxon with the elder child and it was, in retrospect, rather a disaster, because of the 30-ness of the program.

[Cindyg]

"That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":

 

OMG! My kid says this to me nearly every day!

 

I tell him that when grading his math worksheets gets boring because every problem is consistantly correct, we might consider eliminating portions of them. But he says, no, he wants HARDER worksheets with just 10 REALLY hard problems, and if the problems were harder, he would try much, much harder and would get them all right. But our current worksheets are so simple and so boring, he makes careless mistakes.

 

Uh huh.

 

[Rolling my eyes]

[Corraleno]

This evening Swimmer Dude informed me that next year he wanted to use the very best curriculum possible for Algebra 1. I pointed out that his results on today's work in Saxon 8/7 were less than stellar. "That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":001_huh: My plan is to use Foerster's Algebra 1 with the Math Without Borders CD. I'm good to go right? This choice will honor his request and not make him prematurely gray?

:lol: Go, Swimmer Dude!

 

The funny thing is, that's almost exactly what my DS said about the problems in TT, except he only wanted 5 really challenging problems, and he used the word "time" instead of "youth." I'm more impressed with Swimmer Dude's version. :coolgleamA:

 

I'm leaning towards Foerster & MWB myself, so I'm all :bigear:

 

Jackie

[Jen in NY]

Your son might enjoy the Alcumus feature on the Art of Problem Solving: It is free, it learns what problems to throw at you that will be challenging but not impossible ... and as an added bonus he might get into the problem solving contests they advocate over there: he sounds like the type.:)

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.como

[Jane in NC]

Good news: Foerster texts have interesting, multi-step word problems which should engage your son.

 

But the bad news is that drudgery is sometimes required. All pianists have to practice scales. Even swimmers must have some sort of repeated drill or exercise, one suspects. Thus, with Math, there is sometimes the need for repetition. The good news is that high school math does have more interesting problems and less boring arithmetic.

 

Saxon 8/7 gives a foundation. If he is bored, it is perhaps a good sign that he is ready to move on to bigger, better, and far more interesting things.

 

Go Swimmer Dude!

[Capt_Uhura]

I tell him that when grading his math worksheets gets boring because every problem is consistently correct, we might consider eliminating portions of them. But he says, no, he wants HARDER worksheets with just 10 REALLY hard problems, and if the problems were harder, he would try much, much harder and would get them all right. But our current worksheets are so simple and so boring, he makes careless mistakes.

 

My son is the exact same way! He went to PS for K-2. His 2nd grade teacher figured out that that was his issue. So she took away the easy worksheet w/ all the easy, boring problems that he was dawdling over and getting some wrong, and gave him a harder worksheet. He sat down, did them very quickly, and got them all correct! My hypothesis - If they perceive it's easy/boring, they switch off one side of their brain and hence the errors. If they are interested in the task, they give it their full attention. In my naive opinion, :001_smile:, drop the 30 tedious problems and give him 10 challenging ones and see what he does. You'll have your answer.

[Teachin'Mine]

Is he in the last 30 lessons of 8/7? Much of the book feels almost like a repeat of 7/6, but the last 30 lessons pack a punch of very new, very different material. That was our experience anyway.

 

Hope you find what works for him. :)

[Musicmom]

"That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":001_huh:

 

:lol: Love it! But seriously, he has a very good point. I've found with my own dc that lots of unchallenging math (and especially spiral math like Saxon) tended to turn the brain off. I really believe that fewer problems requiring a lot of thought is much better. My ds recently completed multivariable differential calculus through EPGY--and when we went into the proctoring center at our local cc for his final exam, the proctor smiled and thought the test would be pretty quick, only 11 problems! Heh, heh... we explained that ds would need every single minute of the allotted 3 hours to get through them! :lol:

My plan is to use Foerster's Algebra 1 with the Math Without Borders CD. I'm good to go right? This choice will honor his request and not make him prematurely gray?

 

Sounds good to me. I haven't used Foerster's, but a friend of mine uses it and I've read good things about it on this board. We used Videotext and it served us well. It has good teacher support and and fewer problems--so not tedious at all. The problems do require that you think through what's been taught and apply it. Its one weakness, however, is in word problems. We supplemented with NEM for those problem-solving skills. So, you might want to check out Videotext--just keep in mind you'll want to supplement.

[Corraleno]

My son is the exact same way! He went to PS for K-2. His 2nd grade teacher figured out that that was his issue. So she took away the easy worksheet w/ all the easy, boring problems that he was dawdling over and getting some wrong, and gave him a harder worksheet. He sat down, did them very quickly, and got them all correct! My hypothesis - If they perceive it's easy/boring, they switch off one side of their brain and hence the errors. If they are interested in the task, they give it their full attention. In my naive opinion, :001_smile:, drop the 30 tedious problems and give him 10 challenging ones and see what he does. You'll have your answer.

:iagree:

A page full of boring problems puts my son on autopilot, and the other 80% of his brain starts thinking about more interesting things while he half-heartedly slogs through problems. He does much better with fewer, harder problems that force him to pay attention. (In fact, that's pretty much true in all his subjects.)

 

OMG! My kid says this to me nearly every day!

 

I tell him that when grading his math worksheets gets boring because every problem is consistantly correct, we might consider eliminating portions of them. But he says, no, he wants HARDER worksheets with just 10 REALLY hard problems, and if the problems were harder, he would try much, much harder and would get them all right. But our current worksheets are so simple and so boring, he makes careless mistakes.

 

Uh huh.

[Rolling my eyes]

Why not try an experiment for a week and see what happens? If he still makes the same mistakes, you've proven that he isn't ready for that approach and he'll stop asking. If it works, then his grades will improve and you've eliminated a source of friction. He might surprise you! :)

 

Jackie

[Matryoshka]

My hypothesis - If they perceive it's easy/boring, they switch off one side of their brain and hence the errors. If they are interested in the task, they give it their full attention.

 

I myself was proof of this hypothesis. In school, I always did better in classes that challenged me. I would stubbornly refuse to do work that bored me. I would make sure I signed up for all the most challenging classes so that my grades wouldn't suffer. I did shoot myself in the foot a couple of times with this attitude, though... :blush:

 

My plan is to use Foerster's Algebra 1 with the Math Without Borders CD.

 

I'll be :bigear: to see how this works for you, as this is my plan for the mathier of my twins - but I'm going to have her go through Singapore Discovering Mathematics 1 as a warm-up, and plan to get to Foerster's sometime around 8th.

[Guest]

I can't remember ever seeing Key Curriculum Press's Discovering Algebra here... is anybody using it? I used this book because my daughter began with it in the private school she went to briefly last fall, so we just continued rather than switch when she came back home. It has a far more difficult level of word problems than Jacobs, which is my only other comparison book. We do around the 10 problems your son asked for, and it is plenty (almost all the problems are multi-part).

 

Some of the problems ask the child to use a graphing calculator, but they are marked at the start of the problem sections and it's easy to work around them. However, for a gentle, mostly guided introduction to graphing calculator use it's pretty decent. (My daughter is finding she'd rather work on her regular computer, as her dad shows her how he uses his in his mathematical work.)

 

I think it's fantastic your son looked around, chose a book, and has a plan! Sounds as though he deserves at least a chance to try it his way.

[StephanieZ]

Sounds to me like he is begging for Art of Problem Solving. It is exactly what he asked for.

[EKS]

While we haven't used Foerster's Algebra I, we've found Foerster's Algebra II with Math Without Borders DVD to be straightforward to implement and challenging for my son.

[In The Great White North]

"That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.

 

I got a similar response from ds, except that Foerster's had 60-100 boring, tedious problems instead of 30. It does, however, have a few challenging word problems in each lesson.

 

Sounds to me like he is begging for Art of Problem Solving. It is exactly what he asked for.

 

I wish this had been out, or that I had heard of Gelfand, back when ds was doing algebra.

[Laura in CA]

Sounds to me like he is begging for Art of Problem Solving. It is exactly what he asked for.

 

:iagree:

[Nicole M]

My hypothesis - If they perceive it's easy/boring, they switch off one side of their brain and hence the errors. If they are interested in the task, they give it their full attention.

 

I would think the opposite is true as well, that if they perceive that it's hard, a part of their brain switches off.

 

All pianists have to practice scales. Even swimmers must have some sort of repeated drill or exercise, one suspects. Thus, with Math, there is sometimes the need for repetition.

 

See. This is the thing. I was so confused about a math concept yesterday that I posted a question on my FB for my math buddies (a math professor, even!). Various explanations were offered, but I didn't get it. When I asked for some clarification, Bob the Math Prof said something about coming up with a convention to help me remember. I asked if that meant "memorize," and he said no, blah blah (couldn't understand that part either) so I asked if he meant play with the idea, and he said, "Yes - play is essential in learning mathematics."

 

For me, what it comes down to is that it's all drudgery. Lots of other repetitive tasks are not drudgery for me. I loved practicing scales. There's a beauty to some of those repetitive tasks that I just cannot find in math problems! It's not my language. I need a translator. (I started to "get it" when a friend suggested that I think about "changing" the numbers, not "multiplying.") What I am trying to do, what I did not do well with my oldest, is find a way to play through the drudgery, to bring an attitude of play to the business, to model that. It's not going well. I keep thinking if I try a different curriculum, find a tutor, something... will help. And it hasn't so far.

 

So, hijacking just a bit, is it play for you mathy people? Have you found a balance?

[hsbeth]

My oldest switched from Saxon to Life of Fred. Her performance improved and the complaints stopped. Fred has less problems, but they seem much more challenging. We've given finals from more traditional courses to check for her mastery and been pleased.

[swimmermom3]

Gelfand's Algebra book might make a worthy supplement - it has a pretty good quality-to-quantity ratio with its problems. Plus it is pretty inexpensive and promotes mathy thinking.

 

 

 

Your son might enjoy the Alcumus feature on the Art of Problem Solving: It is free, it learns what problems to throw at you that will be challenging but not impossible ... and as an added bonus he might get into the problem solving contests they advocate over there: he sounds like the type.:)

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.como

 

I can't remember ever seeing Key Curriculum Press's Discovering Algebra here... is anybody using it? I used this book because my daughter began with it in the private school she went to briefly last fall, so we just continued rather than switch when she came back home. It has a far more difficult level of word problems than Jacobs, which is my only other comparison book. We do around the 10 problems your son asked for, and it is plenty (almost all the problems are multi-part).

 

Some of the problems ask the child to use a graphing calculator, but they are marked at the start of the problem sections and it's easy to work around them. However, for a gentle, mostly guided introduction to graphing calculator use it's pretty decent. (My daughter is finding she'd rather work on her regular computer, as her dad shows her how he uses his in his mathematical work.)

 

I think it's fantastic your son looked around, chose a book, and has a plan! Sounds as though he deserves at least a chance to try it his way.

 

Sounds to me like he is begging for Art of Problem Solving. It is exactly what he asked for.

 

I have not heard of Gelfand before, but have used the Keys series. This is the first year we supplemented Saxon (Life of Fred) and it was rewarding. I am starting to think that more than one math book isn't necessarily a bad plan.

 

I had forgotten about the Art of Problem Solving. This was suggested to me several months ago by another board member who used similar curricula and I was intrigued. How does the Art of Problem Solving compare to Foersters?

 

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

[In The Great White North]

I don't have AoPS's Algebra to compare to Foerster but I do have Art of Problem Solving I, Intro to Counting & Probability, and Intro to Number Theory. There are significantly fewer problems in each section (maybe 10) but there is also significantly less explanation. If your ds "gets" math intuitively, it would be the program for him. They also sell Solutions Manuals, which have more than just the final answer.

 

Key Curriculum Press Discovering Algebra is not the same as the Key to series. Key Curriculum Press also publishes Foerster's Precalculus and Calculus books. (I didn't buy it from them. I have a much older version.)

[swimmermom3]

I don't have AoPS's Algebra to compare to Foerster but I do have Art of Problem Solving I, Intro to Counting & Probability, and Intro to Number Theory. There are significantly fewer problems in each section (maybe 10) but there is also significantly less explanation. If your ds "gets" math intuitively, it would be the program for him. They also sell Solutions Manuals, which have more than just the final answer.

 

Key Curriculum Press Discovering Algebra is not the same as the Key to series. Key Curriculum Press also publishes Foerster's Precalculus and Calculus books. (I didn't buy it from them. I have a much older version.)

 

Thanks so much for the clarification. "Significantly less explanation" would be an issue for us as my son prefers to teach himself and discuss with me what he is unclear on.

[In The Great White North]

They have excerpts here:

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=intro:algebra

 

So you could check out if it is enough explanation. (It was for me.) Note that the problems are given first, so ds can try to figure them out on his own and then look at the explanation, instead of being given several samples and then doing the same things with 30 more problems. I would think that would cut down on the "tedious, boring factor."

[DavidSChandler]

I got a similar response from ds, except that Foerster's had 60-100 boring, tedious problems instead of 30. It does, however, have a few challenging word problems in each lesson.

 

Solution: Assign fewer problems!

Edited May 26, 2010 by DavidSChandler

[In The Great White North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by In The Great White North

I got a similar response from ds, except that Foerster's had 60-100 boring, tedious problems instead of 30. It does, however, have a few challenging word problems in each lesson.

 

Solution: Assign fewer problems!

__________________

Obviously. But he was quick on the "give an inch, I'll take a mile" philosophy and it became a daily argument. AoPS would have been better for our relationship but their textbooks weren't out in time. Edited May 26, 2010 by In The Great White North

[Rebecca VA]

Mr. Chandler (hi! we use your materials!) -- What if there's a student who understands the concepts but is careless? She listens to music, plays with the dog, choreographs ballets, etc. while she does math, and she gets some of the problems wrong. But she's able to fix them pretty quickly.

 

She *likes* being this way. It would stress her out to be constantly challenged by materials that make her think too hard. Should I keep assigning every problem (sometimes stretching the lesson material over a couple of days) or assign fewer problems and keep at the pace of one lesson per day?

 

Thanks!!

[romeacademy]

"That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":001_huh:

 

My 12 yo LegoDude has the same attitude about Singapore 6. I do often let him skip some problems, provided he gets everything right on the review sections.

 

Another thing that annoys the man-child is dealing with the number of cakes Mrs. Smith is selling. Ask him to figure out the scale on a catapult, or how much jet fuel is consumed and he's all over it. :)

[In The Great White North]

Another thing that annoys the man-child is dealing with the number of cakes Mrs. Smith is selling. Ask him to figure out the scale on a catapult, or how much jet fuel is consumed and he's all over it. :)

 

He will love Foerster. The man is seriously into plane, boat and automobile story problems! And trajectories, and pulleys, with absolutely no cakes. (This would be the Revised Edition of 1984.)

[SusanAR]

Solution: Assign fewer problems!

 

:iagree:

Fewer problems w/ MWB. We liked and appreciated MWB at our house!!!!!

[Mommyfaithe]

"That's because there are 30 boring, tedious problems and I want 10 ultra-challenging ones; otherwise I am just wasting my youth.":001_huh:

 

:lol: :lol::lol:

 

I love this kid!!!

 

No math advice...you know that is not my forte'.....BUT...you just gotta LOVE that kid. Hug him for me...and when Swimmerdude and Dr. Kazam are older...they must meet!!!!!

 

 

Faithe

[swimmermom3]

Solution: Assign fewer problems!

 

Mr. Chandler, my son would appreciate the wisdom in this. His point is that he wants to do enough problems to understand a newly introduced concept and then move on. As his instructor, it's my job to make sure he comprehends the concept and develops the self-discipline skills necessary to be academically successful. In other words, is his request valid or is he trying to get out of some necessary work?

 

Prior to this year, my son did a new Saxon lesson a day with lesson practice and 15 of the 30 review problems. This year, we tried the idea of doing all the problems in a lesson but spreading it out over a couple of days. We could afford to slow down since he is working two years ahead. This probably explains why he feels his youth is being wasted.:tongue_smilie:

 

Recently, our math has become much more free form, if that makes sense. He does a lesson practice. If he is not sure of the concept, then I go in search of similar problems from other math books and he works until he feels comfortable. We are doing far less review and more introduction of new material. Some of what we do goes against common wisdom on the board and I seem to be teaching on more of an intuitive level for this child. His test scores are great but I want to make sure his understanding is there too. I think he has outgrown the Saxon method and is ready for a new challenge. My hope is that Foerster's and MWB will provide that.

:iagree:

Fewer problems w/ MWB. We liked and appreciated MWB at our house!!!!!

 

This is encouraging to hear.

 

:lol: :lol::lol:

 

I love this kid!!!

 

No math advice...you know that is not my forte'.....BUT...you just gotta LOVE that kid. Hug him for me...and when Swimmerdude and Dr. Kazam are older...they must meet!!!!!

 

Thanks Faithe! It's an interesting ride with this child. I think our whole families have to meet.:D

[Matryoshka]

:iagree:

Fewer problems w/ MWB. We liked and appreciated MWB at our house!!!!!

 

So, does MWB spell out which problems to assign from each section/lesson? My plan is to use this with one of my dd's year after next - I've already got the text and teacher's manual, I think all I need now is MWB and the solutions guide?

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom wrote:

 

"Mr. Chandler, my son would appreciate the wisdom in this. His point is that he wants to do enough problems to understand a newly introduced concept and then move on. As his instructor, it's my job to make sure he comprehends the concept and develops the self-discipline skills necessary to be academically successful. In other words, is his request valid or is he trying to get out of some necessary work?"

 

You're describing my son! After bringing him home from PS, we flew through a couple of levels of RS and I let him get away with doing half the problems. But when we got to multidigit multiplication and long, long division, I realized he really needed to do all the problems. He wants to do enough to get the concept and then he's bored with it. He doesn't want to put in the time/effort to become quick and efficient with a topic. I'd find that a few months later, he'd have to think about a problem. It was a HUGE battle to start making him do every. single. problem. But I felt it was necessary. If he can do the first few efficiently, explain it to me, then I'll let him slide but I do give him review problems. I found a free daily math review which is great for this.

 

Anyhow, i know your son is much further along than mine lol but just wanted to say I share your pain and question.

 

Capt_Uhura

[romeacademy]

He will love Foerster. The man is seriously into plane, boat and automobile story problems! And trajectories, and pulleys, with absolutely no cakes. (This would be the Revised Edition of 1984.)

 

Thanks, I will definitely look into this for him. I have used Jacobs with great success for his older sister, but he is far more "mathy". I can't believe what the kid will calculate in his head for fun! Foerster does sound like a better fit.

[DavidSChandler]

Several people in this thread seem to be asking how many problems to assign. My answers for MWB Algebra I and Algebra II are different.

 

The Algebra I videos consist of a lecture for each section in the book. The problems have lots of repetition for practice, which is appropriate at that level. There are a lot of problems in the text. I would recommend thinning them out a little, in general. See how long it takes to do "all the odds." If that is too much for a homework session, cut back a little. The end of chapter word problem sections should take several days. Don't assign more than about two or possibly three such problems in a day.

 

The Algebra II videos consist of a lecture and a problem solving session per section of the text. One way to assign problems is to choose the same problems that are worked out on the videos. The problems tend to be more involved than at the Algebra I level. If you feel there is need for more practice, add a few more of the odd-numbered problems which have answers in the back of the book. I have (in response to this thread) posted the list of problems worked out in the videos on my web site. Check out mathwithoutborders.com/Algebra-II and look at the Teaching Tips section near the bottom of the page.

 

The bottom line is the problem assignments should be tailored to the student. This is harder in a classroom setting, but it should be easier to do with a one-on-one situation.

 

I hope this helps.

[swimmermom3]

Several people in this thread seem to be asking how many problems to assign. My answers for MWB Algebra I and Algebra II are different.

 

The Algebra I videos consist of a lecture for each section in the book. The problems have lots of repetition for practice, which is appropriate at that level. There are a lot of problems in the text. I would recommend thinning them out a little, in general. See how long it takes to do "all the odds." If that is too much for a homework session, cut back a little. The end of chapter word problem sections should take several days. Don't assign more than about two or possibly three such problems in a day.

 

The Algebra II videos consist of a lecture and a problem solving session per section of the text. One way to assign problems is to choose the same problems that are worked out on the videos. The problems tend to be more involved than at the Algebra I level. If you feel there is need for more practice, add a few more of the odd-numbered problems which have answers in the back of the book. I have (in response to this thread) posted the list of problems worked out in the videos on my web site. Check out mathwithoutborders.com/Algebra-II and look at the Teaching Tips section near the bottom of the page.

 

The bottom line is the problem assignments should be tailored to the student. This is harder in a classroom setting, but it should be easier to do with a one-on-one situation.

 

I hope this helps.

 

This does help. Thank for taking the time to stop by and answer our questions.

[Andrew Kern]

Foerster's and Jacob's are my favorite choices, the latter having taught the former if I've read correctly.

 

Keep in mind that Saxon was not really written for bright kids who are good at math, but for kids who needed to improve their SAT scores. He explains that in the introduction - or at least he did in the version I used when I taught 54 ten years ago.

 

Better to give them the challenging problems any day, as long as they don't use it as an excuse to not do the work.

[Nan in Mass]

I found it helpful, too. It is what I remember from my own high school and, so, what I do, but I always wonder if it is what I am supposed to be doing, if I remembered wrong or there was something else the teacher did of which I wasn't aware (highly likely GRIN).

Thanks,

Nan

[JFSinIL]

Is he capable of just jumping in the pool and winning a race without practice? Hey do swimmers practice?

 

Those dull 30 math problems are the brain's math practice. Just tackling the 10 challenging problems would be like just jumping the pool for a race without swim practice or warm-ups.

[Tiramisu]

I thought I was set on Lial's, but after reading Mr. Chandler's post I'm now reconsidering Foerster's. It was a big hit for Algebra 1, but I was afraid of the lack of detail in the Algebra 2 solutions. Now if the problems he is recommending the student do are worked out on the CD, this would really help. And, the number of problems listed on the link he provided would not be burdensome for dd (my slow worker) to do or for me to check.

 

We'd probably spread the book over two years. Does that list contain enough problems for the two year plan? If not, I could supplement problems listed on the Kolbe syllabus.

 

Here we go again! ;)

[Mouse]

We used the Saxon 8/7 as well for both my dd and ds. I can tell you that 30 problems every lesson gets very repetitive especially when it's usually the same ones over and over. At first I felt like they needed to do it, but after getting some reassurance I started having them do the odd ones on Odd lessons and evens on even lessons. That helped out greatly. We moved DS from saxon 8/7 to elementary Algebra by Jacobs. She could do but was not inspired. We changed over to Lials Introductory algebra ((7th edition)) and DS took right to it. She loved it and was able to go through with no problems. Durning the lessons there are sample problems and review at the end. A test for each unit. It's gets involved quickly but at a good pace. I would recommend it for yours as well. With the review I would pick 1/3 of the problems. If no issues for her we would skip to the test. She liked the challenge of completing the test and seeing how many she could get right with the limited review (( Of course, if there was any issues in the review we would stop and go over adn review that area)) For her, there is doing problems for checking to see if they have an understanding and then doing the problems just because they are there - which can be very boring and laborious when you already understand it.

[Mouse]

Change those DS to DD in the last post.. it's our first day of vacation and i'm not 100% with it yet. :lol:

[Storm Bay]

I. I loved practicing scales.

 

Wow, had I more piano students like this!!! I hated practicing scales and I hated swmming laps in lessons, but I have 3 dc that swim laps on a team.

 

As for math, Gelfand's has some hard problems, but Adrian used to recommend waiting until 13 because some of those problems are very long.

 

Jane in NC--do you think Foerster's might be better for my middle one than Dolciani given that she'll be starting at 12 this fall after doing LOF? She's not as into math as my eldest is, but is still fairly mathy.

[Storm Bay]

Foerster's and Jacob's are my favorite choices, the latter having taught the former if I've read correctly.

 

Keep in mind that Saxon was not really written for bright kids who are good at math, but for kids who needed to improve their SAT scores. He explains that in the introduction - or at least he did in the version I used when I taught 54 ten years ago.

 

Better to give them the challenging problems any day, as long as they don't use it as an excuse to not do the work.

 

Thanks for this post! This makes sense, and I should have read that intro.

[Jane in NC]

 

Jane in NC--do you think Foerster's might be better for my middle one than Dolciani given that she'll be starting at 12 this fall after doing LOF? She's not as into math as my eldest is, but is still fairly mathy.

 

I do not know the answer to that but suggest that you show the two texts to her (if perhaps someone you know has Foerster's sitting around). I did this with my son for Precalc. I asked him if he wanted to stay with Dolciani (using the Analysis book) or jump ship to the more standard Larson text which I picked up at a library book sale. He preferred sticking with Dolciani.

 

What this might boil down to is whether she wants to see more interesting applications ala Foerster or the more theoretical focus with Dolciani.

 

I often would stick with what I owned and then did what I needed to do to make it work. So if you own Dolciani, you could use that and then find some applications to add if that interests your daughter.

 

For what it is worth,

Jane

[Nan in Mass]

Or try to do. Sigh. Is this what you mean? This is how I think of it: Everyone needs to learn how to think. Once you have learned how to think, you can apply that to any subject. My family (non-academic-y people that we are) prefers to learn how to think in only one or two subjects, and then do the rest at a lesser, more efficient un-thinky level because that leaves us time to work and play with our own projects. To learn to think in something does indeed mean having lots of time to mess about with it, tinker with it, apply it in different ways, see what else you can do with it, see what happens if you change this, etc.. It is hard to do that with too many subjects at once, especially if you have a few subjects of your own going outside of school. I think it makes sense, when homeschooling, to pick either a subject you are enthusiastic about thinking in, or even better, one in which your child is, and use that as your playing-about-with-so-you-learn-to-think subject. For some people, skill subjects work - math, writing, foreign languages, etc., and other people learn to think in content subjects where everything has to be pulled together. If you use a content subject, you have to do something beyond the typical survey-type class. I think it is important to make students use thinking skills in all the subjects, once they have those skills, but ideally (this is the hard part), you use the strong subject to further those skills.

 

I'm not sure this is what you were talking about? When people talk about having "mathy" or "non-mathy" students, I think they mostly mean they have a student who enjoys playing about with math or one who does not enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you may not have paid enough attention to math and consequently be rather lost as you get into higher math, making you like it even less and begin to do badly. Sometimes a person who thinks they are non-mathy can be "fixed" and rediscover their love of puzzles, but some people, I think, never will enjoy playing with math, even if they are able to do it easily. They would rather play with colours or words or people or whatever. If you have a student like this, then it might make more sense to make him competent but not worry too much if he doesn't have the highest theoretical math. My approach for my non-mathy son was to get an engineering-math-oriented curriculum and take him through that. It was very applied, so he was forced to play with his math just enough that he could use it outside the textbook. I think he probably would have been uncooperative with a "real" math book like AofP ánd quickly gotten lost. And I know that an untheoretical, algorithm-based math would have been (was - sigh) a disaster because he would have been able to chug-and-plug his way through it without really understanding it or being able to apply it, making it a huge waste of time. He did his real learning-to-think in a different subject and just used it during math.

 

That is what I think, anyway. But maybe I am wrong about this? (More hijacking GRIN)

 

-Nan

Edited June 3, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Storm Bay]

I do not know the answer to that but suggest that you show the two texts to her (if perhaps someone you know has Foerster's sitting around). I did this with my son for Precalc. I asked him if he wanted to stay with Dolciani (using the Analysis book) or jump ship to the more standard Larson text which I picked up at a library book sale. He preferred sticking with Dolciani.

 

What this might boil down to is whether she wants to see more interesting applications ala Foerster or the more theoretical focus with Dolciani.

 

I often would stick with what I owned and then did what I needed to do to make it work. So if you own Dolciani, you could use that and then find some applications to add if that interests your daughter.

 

For what it is worth,

Jane

 

 

Thanks! This answer helps a great deal. I own both, actually, since I was able to pick up a used Foerster for a low price and bought it for reference. Your answer is very helpful. My eldest likes math theory, but I'm not so sure if my middle one does.

[manylilblessings]

To the OP, that thought process of your child's is why we abandoned Saxon in our family. My oldest was 6, and was struggling with fine motor and writing. There were so many repetitious problems and he really got it faster than Saxon would accomodate. He hated math as a result. We switched to Singapore, and he's doing great. The fine motor resolved itself, and he didn't get beaten up by Singapore because of the fewer repetitions. We didn't do NEM though. We're trying TT, but he's only in Pre-Algebra (finishing 6th grade). I think TT might move a little slowly, so hearing about all the challenging Algebra programs on this thread is helpful!

[swimmermom3]

Is he capable of just jumping in the pool and winning a race without practice? Hey do swimmers practice?

 

Those dull 30 math problems are the brain's math practice. Just tackling the 10 challenging problems would be like just jumping the pool for a race without swim practice or warm-ups.

 

:lol: Now that is an analogy the boy can understand.

 

Or try to do. Sigh. Is this what you mean? This is how I think of it: Everyone needs to learn how to think. Once you have learned how to think, you can apply that to any subject. My family (non-academic-y people that we are) prefers to learn how to think in only one or two subjects, and then do the rest at a lesser, more efficient un-thinky level because that leaves us time to work and play with our own projects. To learn to think in something does indeed mean having lots of time to mess about with it, tinker with it, apply it in different ways, see what else you can do with it, see what happens if you change this, etc.. It is hard to do that with too many subjects at once, especially if you have a few subjects of your own going outside of school. I think it makes sense, when homeschooling, to pick either a subject you are enthusiastic about thinking in, or even better, one in which your child is, and use that as your playing-about-with-so-you-learn-to-think subject. For some people, skill subjects work - math, writing, foreign languages, etc., and other people learn to think in content subjects where everything has to be pulled together. If you use a content subject, you have to do something beyond the typical survey-type class. I think it is important to make students use thinking skills in all the subjects, once they have those skills, but ideally (this is the hard part), you use the strong subject to further those skills.

 

I'm not sure this is what you were talking about? When people talk about having "mathy" or "non-mathy" students, I think they mostly mean they have a student who enjoys playing about with math or one who does not enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you may not have paid enough attention to math and consequently be rather lost as you get into higher math, making you like it even less and begin to do badly. Sometimes a person who thinks they are non-mathy can be "fixed" and rediscover their love of puzzles, but some people, I think, never will enjoy playing with math, even if they are able to do it easily. They would rather play with colours or words or people or whatever. If you have a student like this, then it might make more sense to make him competent but not worry too much if he doesn't have the highest theoretical math. My approach for my non-mathy son was to get an engineering-math-oriented curriculum and take him through that. It was very applied, so he was forced to play with his math just enough that he could use it outside the textbook. I think he probably would have been uncooperative with a "real" math book like AofP ánd quickly gotten lost. And I know that an untheoretical, algorithm-based math would have been (was - sigh) a disaster because he would have been able to chug-and-plug his way through it without really understanding it or being able to apply it, making it a huge waste of time. He did his real learning-to-think in a different subject and just used it during math.

 

That is what I think, anyway. But maybe I am wrong about this? (More hijacking GRIN)

 

-Nan

 

Never a hijack, Nan.:D As usual, you have me shifting my focus from "what" to do to "why." The idea of learning to think in only one or two subjects might be an educational heresy,;) but it is a proposition well-worth considering in my son's case.

 

Math is the one subject that can inspire guilt in me quicker than a box of bon-bons. My older kids were caught in the transition from traditional math to Connected Math when few supporting methods were being used. It took thousands of dollars of tutoring for my daughter to fix things and the outcome was marginal; it took a couple of years of homeschooling for my older son and the outcome is okay. We kept the youngest (swimmer Dude) out of the situation and that is where we have the best results. Swimmer Dude is much more competent at math than his siblings. I haunt the math threads trying to figure out how to keep this going. I read posts where the kids are doing every problem and redoing the paper if they get less than 85%-and I feel guilty. I read posts from experienced moms with successful kids that are adamant that you should not teach your child unless you are fully able to explain every math concept -and I feel guilty. I don't know, given my own limitations, if we will ever have a "higher level of thinking" in math.

 

So Nan, if I understand correctly what you are saying, I might not need to sweat that as much as I have been. My son became really excited about literary analysis this year and it is an area that I can instinctively play with. For example, last night my dd shared a Sylvia Plath poem with me that I wasn't familiar with. It had to do with Persephone. Dude had just read the myth so he became involved in the discussion. Somehow, my dd and I shifted the conversation to how we would paint the poem. Dude demanded that his sister explain "seeing the art in the words." Great conversation.

 

If I focus on learning to think, to question, to analyze, and to move outside the box in literature next year, the idea would be that my son would translate some of those evolving thinking skills to math. We can continue to develop his mathematical competency with a solid curriculum and some games and puzzles and let it be.

 

Nan,:grouphug:. Huge.sigh.of.relief. How did you know I was driving myself crazy trying to provide depth in every subject?

 

About the helicopters...it's worse when you picture them hovering over a rugged coastline in a storm.

[Nan in Mass]

Sigh. I've seen them hovering over a rugged coastline in a storm. Maybe that is why I find them so worrisome. I associate the sound of them with somebody being missing and it makes my blood run cold.

 

And how did I know? If you go back a bit on the boards, you will get to a series of panicky posts of mine when I had gotten my older ones settled and was finally able to turn my mind to figuring out what to do with my neglected youngest. That, and I am going through a similar panicky patch over what to do for him next year right now. I have written plan after plan and keep finding major problems with each one. Ug.

 

Hugs

-Nan