Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student vs. LToW

[MommyThrice]

I have the Corbett book. I'm trying to decide if I can use it alone, or if I need LToW to go with it. Do they cover the same material? Does Corbett give actual instruction?

 

I plan to start this with my 15yo ds in the fall. He is a decent writer, has competed in speech & debate for 3 years (brag: he just qualified to nationals!) so he has a a good grasp of logic, argumentation and persuasive speaking, but I think he could still use some writing help. We will also study formal logic next year - we've only covered logical fallacies so far.

 

I like what I have seen in LToW, although it will be largely review for him. I'm not crazy about scripted lessons. I really prefer a sourcebook that I can teach from, but I need an explanation of how the concepts will fit into a written paper. Will Classical Rhetoric fit the bill? I've only skimmed it and it is a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks,

Tracie

[forty-two]

My impression (I have Corbett, but have just read about LToW) is that there is quite a gulf b/w LT and Corbett. I mean, LT is listed as 7-9th, while SWB rec's Corbett as a senior-year text for strong students.

 

Have you seen or done any of SWB's other rec's for hs - A Rulebook for Arguments (Weston), New Oxford Guide to Writing (Kane), Composition in the Classical Tradition (D'Angelo)? Just thinking that they would fit somewhere b/w LT and Corbett (though the Weston book might be covered by LT), which might be a better fit for your ds.

 

Also, I think that SWB's hs writing lecture would be helpful in how to teach from Corbett. Here are her lecture notes on hs writing, which might give an idea of how to teach from it.

[MommyThrice]

We've covered Weston's Rulebook for Arguments; it was also mostly review after debating. I wasn't going to just hand the book to my ds, I plan to use it to help me teach. BTW, the link to SWB notes does recommend Corbett (and D'Angelo) in 9th-12th grade, although I think I remember that in the actual lecture she says to wait until 12th grade.

 

I hate to spend $120 and then not need it. I guess I could use it with my younger children.

[forty-two]

Yeah, that wasn't the link of was thinking of, but it was all I could find :glare:. But, hey, it does give an outline for doing what you want to do (if a very very broad one) :lol:.

 

Especially if your ds has done the Weston book, LToW seems awfully beneath him. I haven't really used Corbett, but I don't mind pulling it out and brainstorming with you, especially if no one more experienced chimes in.

[Andrew Kern]

I have the Corbett book. I'm trying to decide if I can use it alone, or if I need LToW to go with it. Do they cover the same material? Does Corbett give actual instruction?

 

I plan to start this with my 15yo ds in the fall. He is a decent writer, has competed in speech & debate for 3 years (brag: he just qualified to nationals!) so he has a a good grasp of logic, argumentation and persuasive speaking, but I think he could still use some writing help. We will also study formal logic next year - we've only covered logical fallacies so far.

 

I like what I have seen in LToW, although it will be largely review for him. I'm not crazy about scripted lessons. I really prefer a sourcebook that I can teach from, but I need an explanation of how the concepts will fit into a written paper. Will Classical Rhetoric fit the bill? I've only skimmed it and it is a bit confusing to me.

 

Thanks,

Tracie

 

Tracie,

 

Your child is the type of student who would do quite well with Corbett. I would suggest getting LTW I and ignoring the module guides. I don't like them myself, but the program wouldn't exist if we hadn't added them.

 

When we were developing LTW, we were looking at Cicero, Ad Herrenium, Quintilian, Aristotle and all that stuff. Corbett saved us years of labor by following D'Angelo's sorting approach to the topics.

 

The value of LTW for your student would be in the step by step, systematic development of the ideas. He can go at his own pace and weave it into his other learning (debate, literature, etc.) as you judge best.

 

Please don't let the structure of the LTW presentation interfere with your freedom. For your child there are probably too many helps. Only use the ones you want. Spend a semester on it if you like (level II is ready for follow up).

 

After a couple years of LTW, he'll find Corbett is a finishing touch and a reference work.

 

blessings on your teaching!

[Hoggirl]

What is "LTW?"

[Andrew Kern]

Cynthia,

 

LTW is a program that teaches you how to write by asking questions. The first question it teaches you to ask is the question, "What is this?"

 

Therefore you just asked a brilliant question, which I will now answer:

 

LTW stands for The Lost Tools of Writing.

 

:001_smile: