X-Post:Just how important is logic (as a scheduled subject)?

[Melissa B]

My dd is only 12 (13 next school year) but we are treating this upcoming year as her freshman year and I would appreciate your input. thanks!

 

* * * *

 

 

I have finished dd 12's schedule for next year. She has 9 credit hours scheduled. Hypothetically, she has time to accomplish this. We school year round (45 weeks) and approximately 50 hours per week.

 

But, I worry it would be tight trying to get everything done. There are 6.5 credits I feel are required:

math 1cr

english 1cr

Latin 1cr

history 1cr

literature 1cr

science 1cr

geography .5 cr

 

There are 2.0 additional credits my daughter doesn't want to drop:

 

French .5 cr

Art .5 cr

an additional science 1 cr

 

So that only leaves a .5 credit of logic that we both feel could possibly be dropped. She has never had formal logic and really only has this year and next to fit it in. Next year's schedule should look exactly like this year.

 

So do we just let it go? Or is it important enough to squeeze in a half credit this year and a half credit next year?

Edited May 11, 2010 by Melissa B

[Kareni]

Many at the high school level, not all, have one English credit that includes literature and composition primarily (plus helpings of grammar, spelling and vocabulary). Likewise, many (not all) choose to do one credit of history or another social sciences study (i.e., Geography, Economics, Psychology, etc.). If you were to do likewise, your first category would decrease to 4.0 credits. I would think strongly about doing a science which would then bring the credit count to 5.0. Then consider her interests to decide what else you might add -- modern foreign language, art, music, etc.

 

(Incidentally, you mentioned having nine credits. I only see seven total.)

 

Regards,

Kareni

Edited May 11, 2010 by Kareni

[Melissa B]

Many at the high school level, not all, have one English credit that includes literature and composition primarily (plus helpings of grammar, spelling and vocabulary). Likewise, many (not all) choose to do one credit of history or another social sciences study (i.e., Geography, Economics, Psychology, etc.). If you were to do likewise, your first category would decrease to 4.0 credits. I would think strongly about doing a science which would then bring the credit count to 5.0. Then consider her interests to decide what else you might add -- modern foreign language, art, music, etc.

 

(Incidentally, you mentioned having nine credits. I only see seven total.)

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

sorry, I somehow left science out of my list. The nine credits:

 

Latin - 1

math - 1

science - 1

history - 1

literature - 1

english - 1

geography - .5

 

french - .5

art - .5

extra science class - 1

 

logic - .5

 

 

I hate to only give her one credit when she will definitely earned two. She will likely put at least 400 hours into English/literature next year. There is nothing we want to drop there. I'm just not sure about adding a logic class on top of everything else. :confused:

[forty-two]

Your siggie says you are doing CLAA - if you plan to continue with that, doing all the courses, then you will get a LOT of logic, nicely integrated with everything else. Even just doing the arithmetic course will give you a lot of applied logic. I think logic is important to study, but CLAA studies should be more than sufficient in that area - I wouldn't worry too much about squeezing in a separate logic course unless your dd wanted to.

[Melissa B]

Your siggie says you are doing CLAA - if you plan to continue with that, doing all the courses, then you will get a LOT of logic, nicely integrated with everything else. Even just doing the arithmetic course will give you a lot of applied logic. I think logic is important to study, but CLAA studies should be more than sufficient in that area - I wouldn't worry too much about squeezing in a separate logic course unless your dd wanted to.

 

True. My other children I believe will make it to the CLAA logic and rhetoric courses, so it won't be an issue. But I don't think this daughter will get that far in her studies. She would need to finish 4 classes (grammar I, II, III and dialectic) before she could take the logic or rhetoric classes. She can start at the CC in two years and I don't think she will have time to make any progress beyond those four classes.

 

DD is a very strong student. I don't want her to miss out on the logic classes if students are coming back from college saying how helpful/life changing their high school logic/rhetoric classes have been. :D

 

However, she will have several years of Latin and probably a few Art of Problem Solving classes to her name, along with the lower level CLAA classes. I never took logic in high school or college (other than one philosophy class where logic was briefly covered in a couple of weeks.)

 

I really don't know how much importance to place on a formal logic class for high school??

[forty-two]

True. My other children I believe will make it to the CLAA logic and rhetoric courses, so it won't be an issue. But I don't think this daughter will get that far in her studies. She would need to finish 4 classes (grammar I, II, III and dialectic) before she could take the logic or rhetoric classes. She can start at the CC in two years and I don't think she will have time to make any progress beyond those four classes.

 

DD is a very strong student. I don't want her to miss out on the logic classes if students are coming back from college saying how helpful/life changing their high school logic/rhetoric classes have been. :D

 

However, she will have several years of Latin and probably a few Art of Problem Solving classes to her name, along with the lower level CLAA classes. I never took logic in high school or college (other than one philosophy class where logic was briefly covered in a couple of weeks.)

 

I really don't know how much importance to place on a formal logic class for high school??

I think CLAA grammar I-III + dialetic + arithmetic will be a LOT stronger logic experience than anything you did for just a half credit.

 

I did *love* anything logic-related in uni - discrete math, programming (A.I. in particular). And I do *love* my logic self-study in Kreeft's "Socratic Logic". I'd have loved to have studied it in high school. There will be lots of logic study in our hs ;).

 

But logic study is, imo, only worthwhile if you learn how to apply it across disciplines. And CLAA does do that. I'm fairly certain Mr Michael thinks logic study w/out the pre-reqs is pointless. I don't go that far, but I think you'd have to consciously make an effort to apply what you learned in your half-credit formal course to all your humanities courses to make it worthwhile. (I think that period, but *especially* since you are getting so much good practice in deductive reasoning with CLAA.)

[Melissa B]

I think CLAA grammar I-III + dialetic + arithmetic will be a LOT stronger logic experience than anything you did for just a half credit.

 

I did *love* anything logic-related in uni - discrete math, programming (A.I. in particular). And I do *love* my logic self-study in Kreeft's "Socratic Logic". I'd have loved to have studied it in high school. There will be lots of logic study in our hs ;).

 

But logic study is, imo, only worthwhile if you learn how to apply it across disciplines. And CLAA does do that. I'm fairly certain Mr Michael thinks logic study w/out the pre-reqs is pointless. I don't go that far, but I think you'd have to consciously make an effort to apply what you learned in your half-credit formal course to all your humanities courses to make it worthwhile. (I think that period, but *especially* since you are getting so much good practice in deductive reasoning with CLAA.)

 

Thanks! You've helped me think this through. I do think the half credit of logic would be weak as I have no foundation in formal logic and would be working through the material with my daughter. I think she would be better served using the extra time for more study in math - her CLAA arithmetic classes and later the AoPS classes she is wanting to take. And she can always explore logic classes in college.

[Kareni]

Now seeing your schedule with science added in, I believe I'd be disinclined to add logic as well. It looks like it will be a meaty year for your daughter.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Brindee]

extra science class - 1

 

I hate to only give her one credit when she will definitely earned two. She will likely put at least 400 hours into English/literature next year.

What is the extra science class for? Will she also be putting in 360 or more hours on science to get a whole 2nd credit hour? Just curious as to how she'll work that/what she's doing.

[Melissa B]

What is the extra science class for? Will she also be putting in 360 or more hours on science to get a whole 2nd credit hour? Just curious as to how she'll work that/what she's doing.

 

Yes, we will document hours and I'm sure she will have well over 360. But again, we school year round and have always done long days.

 

Her primary credit will be Environmental Science. She will be doing Oak Meadow Environmental Science (9th grade.) We started it this past year, but I felt her writing skills needed more work and I was struggling to keep up with everyone so I put all of the kids together in the same science (Botany.) She didn't mind, as she is also our resident gardener. Rule follower that she is, she told me she will redo the lessons she has already done in Environmental Science and choose a different project for each.:) She will also be viewing the TC Nature of Earth DVDs with the other children, reading the text to accompany the DVDs (only her) working through a junior high project book on Earth science (with her siblings.)

 

She will also be doing two half credits - Astronomy and Marine Science.

 

The Astronomy was at the request of her sister. DD 10 will be doing Oak Meadow's Earth Science (7th grade?) which has astronomy lessons that she is not looking forward to at all. She wants her sister to suffer with her. :tongue_smilie: I'm still trying to pull that class together. Besides the OM 7 book I have the TC DVDs My Favorite Universe and a junior high Astronomy project book. I don't like the recommendations listed with My Favorite Universe so I haven't decided on a spine for this class yet. I was originally only going to do a quick overview of Astronomy, but now am looking at a semester long class.

 

The second half credit is Marine Science. This is my daughter's passion and her intended major in college. We will be doing one of the junior high For Sea programs, the additional reading recommended to go along with the program, and the Project WILD Aquatic activities that match up with it as well. I also have the Oceanography website listed a week or so ago on the K-8 board. We live on the Gulf of Mexico, so assuming the oil spill doesn't change our plans, she will continue to snorkle regularly with my dh and continue work on her crab collection (if there were a gagging icon I'd be using it here.) She does have a horseshoe crab the size of a small dog that is almost interesting. Why crabs??? I'm going to have her start journalling her dives. And I think she will be asking for a higher level underwater camera for her birthday/Christmas gift this year so she can start photographing and documenting some of what she sees.

 

I'm in the process of writing out my plans over the next few weeks. If more detailed information or links would be helpful, just let me know!

[Jean in Wisc]

I would not add logic on top of that schedule, but I can tell you that my son tells me over and over and over that he wishes that the kids in his college classes had had a course in logic. He claims it was the most useful class he took in high school--the mind that can reason things out is able to do any other subject better.

 

Jean