Can you compare Notgrass with Sonlight for me?

[Cheri Warren]

I know SL has more lit to read, but can you tell me how the two compare and which one you prefer?

How long does Notgrass take to get done each day.

 

I am looking right now at the World History for Notgrass specifically

Which would you choose and why

 

Also, for SL I am looing at Core 100 and beyond..

[Lori D.]

We used Notgrass Amer. Hist., with a few SL100 books, and made our own Amer. Lit. this year. Last year, we used a secular history textbook and a lot of SL300 books for 20th century history/lit. Here are a few thoughts on both programs. Hope something here helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Notgrass

Christian perspective. Can be done completely solo by the student. Focus is on history, told through a 2-volume text in an informal conversational tone, plus through a 3rd volume of excerpts from source documents, essays, speeches, poems, and writings of authors of the times.

 

There is no daily or weekly schedule, although the history portion is divided into 30 "units" with each unit designed to take 1 week to complete. There are 5 chapters per unit, with the first 4 being straight forward history, and the the 5th chapter being a "Bible study" chapter, which connects historical elements of the times just read about with Scripture and Christian worldview topics. There are history research/writing assignment ideas for each chapter. There is also an optional quiz/test packet available for the history portion.

 

Notgrass literature

The literature is more what I would call "supplemental reading" to add to the history; it is about 14 works that are a combination of classic works (about half), historical fiction novels (1-2), biographies (3-4), and "lite" works (1-2). The literature portion has no formal schedule, although in each "unit" of the history, you are given a general guideline re: the literature (ex: start this book this week; continue reading this book this week; finish this book this week). There is just a very little background on each author/work; there is NO literary analysis or discussion questions; there are a few comprehension questions. There are also (just a very few) writing assignment ideas for each book.

 

Notgrass credits

For credit purposes, this program is worth 1 credit of history. If you do the Literature and Bible portions, you would need to either supplement heavily or just blend in those portions of Notgrass with some other Lit. and Bible programs in order to consider them 1 credit each.

 

Time to do Notgrass

Depends on how much of the program you are doing, and if you are doing any of the reading aloud or doing any discussion together. It took us about 2.5-3 hours a week to read/discuss the 4 history chapters, about 75% of the source document excerpts, and about 50% of the Bible study chapters. We did not do the quiz/test packet, and did writing about history separately (not from the Notgrass). We also did a separate American Lit., so I can only give you a guess that the lit. readings for Notgrass would take about 2 hours a week.

 

 

Sonlight

Christian perspective; uses many secular books. Teacher involved (reading TM notes, leading discussion, etc.) "Real book" based, meaning not textbook based but learning history through a selection of non-fiction books, biographies, and lots of historical fiction, using the TM notes to guide you into discussion and making connections.

 

The TM provides a weekly schedule (specifically scheduling for each day of a 4-day or 5-day school week), giving specific page assignments for each book used for each subject: Bible, history, geography, literature. There are no quizzes or tests. There are suggested research/writing assignment ideas. Quite a few of the historical fiction works used as part of the history or the literature especially for SL100 and even SL300 are written at a middle school level -- a few even more at a gr. 4-6 reading level. Like Notgrass, SL is weak in the literature department, providing little (sometimes no) literary information, discussion, or analysis help.

 

 

JMO, but here are what grades I would suggest the different SL cores would work for:

 

- SL100 (American History) = gr. 6-8

(all but 2-3 books at a middle school level; Joy Hakin set of Amer. History texts are the history textbook)

 

- SL200 (Church History) = gr. 10-12??

(focus is the church, apologetics, and church figure biographies rather than traditional history; the books for the Bible selection definitely put this into an upper high school level, as most students below gr. 10-11 are not ready to be wrestling through apologetics and worldview issues; BUT, about half a dozen books meant to "balance out" this core are at middle school level...I would probably NOT do SL200 as a core, but just read the worthwhile books in the reading list at the age level that was appropriate to my students)

 

- SL300 (20th Century History) = gr. 9-10

(no history textbook, but 2 non-fiction books with loads of photos give a visual overview of the century; quite a few books are at a middle school level; however there are also a few books to watch out for that are for mature high school students ONLY!)

 

- SL400 (Civics) = gr. 11-12 = non-history-based SL core

(focus is on Government/Civics, with much of the historical fiction and literature focused on different ethnic group points-of-view, not history; about half a dozen books are at a middle school level, but chosen for that civics or ethnic point of view)

 

- SL530 (British Lit) = gr. 11-12 = non-history-based SL core

(focus is all British Literature; no history; all books at a high school level; not as much discussion/literary analysis as one would hope for)

 

 

Time = again, varies depending on how many of the books in a core you read, whether you're doing some/any aloud or all solo by the student, how much discussion and research/writing you do.... Each of these cores contains 40-50 books, so if you do all the books in a core, you're completing 1 book a week, and a number of weeks, 2 books a week.

 

JMO, but I would say SL is less successful at the high school levels, as the real books used are often not at a high school level, nor is there enough instruction in literary analysis to make either the history or the literature really "work". We found that moving to a textbook for history and going towards a WTM "Great Books" type of study for our literature, worked best and was most appropriate for us in high school. We really enjoyed the Notgrass American History (the World History looks like to much of a skim overview for us), and adding in a lot of SL books, and then creating our own Literature.

 

Hope that is of help! BEST of luck in finding what works for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Cheri Warren]

Wow, thanks for this wonderful review! I think we may indeed go with notgrass or even BJU then add in lit.

May I ask which World History you will be using?

[Lori D.]

Wow, thanks for this wonderful review! I think we may indeed go with notgrass or even BJU then add in lit.

May I ask which World History you will be using?

 

 

We used SWB's suggestion of Spielvogel's "World History: Human Odyssey" 2 years ago for ancient world history (first 200 pages), and last year we used it for 20th century world history (last 400-450 pages).

 

Pros for us were the many illustrations and photos, plus excerpts of writings from authors of the times, and sidebar articles on arts and culture topics. There are also in the chapter questions if you want quizzes, and plenty of review questions and essay or research type questions at the end of each chapter for making tests or for writing assignment ideas.

 

Cons for us were that it does sound like a textbook (in contrast, we really enjoyed Notgrass' more informal style), and the slightly negative bias against the Church and religion (and again, Notgrass' Christian perspective this year were very refreshing).

 

We'll be doing medieval world history next year, and I thought we might try SWB's new Medieval History book for adults, BUT... it is over 700 pages long (almost twice as long as I was thinking of) and it only covers a portion of the time period I would like to cover. So, it's back to a portion of Spielvogel, I guess...

 

BEST of luck in finding what works best for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Brindee]

Have you looked at MFW? They use the Notgrass books, and have a course written out really to the student, so it can be done independently. There are ways for the parent to be involved if they want to be however, including a once a week meeting to discuss/go over things that the child has worked on.

 

I have not used it yet. DD will be doing MFW AHL next year for 9th grade, and is looking forward to it! If next year goes well, we'll do the MFW World History for her 10th grade year.

 

http://www.mfwbooks.com/highschool.html

[cocoabean]

Notgrass credits

For credit purposes, this program is worth 1 credit of history. If you do the Literature and Bible portions, you would need to either supplement heavily or just blend in those portions of Notgrass with some other Lit. and Bible programs in order to consider them 1 credit each.

 

I'm very curious about the credit issue, and have read such comments before, more than once on forums. I'm not debating or challenging you, rather posing my thoughts to gain insight from you. What I'm wondering is, if Notgrass recommends awarding 3 credits per year for their curriculum, why do you feel it is necessary to add to it to actually give the three full credits? The author is a very intelligent sounding individual, and I'm puzzled as to why he would recommend awarding 3 credits if they weren't earned. What are your thoughts on this?

 

 

 

JMO, but I would say SL is less successful at the high school levels, as the real books used are often not at a high school level, nor is there enough instruction in literary analysis to make either the history or the literature really "work". We found that moving to a textbook for history and going towards a WTM "Great Books" type of study for our literature, worked best and was most appropriate for us in high school. We really enjoyed the Notgrass American History (the World History looks like to much of a skim overview for us), and adding in a lot of SL books, and then creating our own Literature.

 

I read your next post about the Spielvogle book. So I am presuming that was your spine? If so, how did you pull the literature books in? How did you go about creating your reading list?

 

Thanks in advance!

~Cocoa

[Lori D.]

I'm very curious about the credit issue... why do you feel it is necessary to add to it to actually give the three full credits?

 

I was off-line for awhile, so I just now found your post with questions for me. :) Bear in mind, this is just my opinion about Notgrass. What works for us, or is the standard for us is different from everyone else. Why I don't count it as 3 full credits is because it does not cover what I hold as the standard as full credits for our homeschool high school. Here is what Notgrass looks like compared to what we count as a credit:

 

 

re: 1 credit for History

Plenty of reading, primary source documents, research and writing assignments for a full history credit; also includes study questions, quizzes and tests.

 

re: 1 credit for English

A typical English credit (for us) is made up of:

- literature (instruction in literature, genres, and literary analysis; reading classic works; discussion questions to guide analysis -- different from comprehension questions!; teacher guided discussion and analysis; writing about the works)

- writing (instruction in composition; assignments -- reading responses; annotations or journal responses; literary analysis essays; research papers with citations; persuasive (argumentative) essays; etc.)

- grammar (instruction; practice of mechanics, word usage, editing, diagramming, etc.)

- vocabulary (new word introduction, usage, practice; possible root word program)

 

Notgrass English has:

- a literature list (8-10 classics; and then works that are not really classic literature, but I would use as history supplement: a few "lite" biographies, historical fiction and/or humorous works),

- a very few comprehension questions

- writing assignment ideas

 

Notgrass English has NO:

- instruction or information about literature or literary analysis

- discussion questions or analysis of the specific works of literature

- instruction in writing/composition

- instruction in grammar

- practice of any grammar mechanics, word usage, editing, diagramming, etc.

- defining of or practice with vocabulary found in the literature

 

As a result, I count Notgrass English as a reading list that supplements/supports the history. To count the program as 1 credit of English, I added all of the above that is missing from Notgrass through lit. guides, and additional writing, grammar and vocabulary programs. Here and here are past threads with other people's thoughts on the English portion of Notgrass.

 

re: 1 credit Bible

Consists of the fifth chapter of each week's unit; Biblical worldview topics usually based on something from the history chapters read that week -- usually be quite interesting. Also includes Scripture references, suggested memory verses, and some suggested essay question ideas. A fine supplement, but not (JMO) a credit for Bible study, which, for us, needs to include:

- actual Scripture study and comparison (ex: Kay Arthur precept study; Bible Study Fellowship study; etc.)

- history of Biblical people, places, cultures, events to understand context of Scripture

- possibly some doctrine/theology

- worship and prayer time

- guided discussion, personal application/reflection

 

 

Spielvogle book... I am presuming that was your spine?

 

Yes; for 2 years: ancient world history; 20th century world history. Notgrass was our complete history program for American history.

 

 

How did you go about creating your reading list?

 

With great effort and huge amount of time spent over the previous summer! :tongue_smilie: How I specifically do it is in this thread, along with how other ladies make their own lit. lists: If you make your own lit. course/list

 

 

How did you pull the literature books in?

 

We do the literature as part of our English credit, and *generally* (but not always) we are reading literature that is written in or set around the history period we're currently covering, and where it overlaps with history we just make mention of it. Is that what you were asking??

 

Or, did you mean, how do we discuss the literature?? We use lit. guides as springboards into learning about specific literary elements and themes and then look for them and discuss them as we find them in the literature. We do writing assignments from ideas in the lit. guides, or if something specific comes up in the discussion that the DSs want to pursue in more depth.

 

Here is another great thread on how people "do" their own literature course with their students: Questions about how you do literature with your high school students

 

 

And finally, here is a past post in which I link a LOT of past threads all about creating your own literature. BEST of luck in your history and literature adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[cocoabean]

Lori D,

 

Thank you so much for all the links and detailed info! I really appreciate you taking time to type out this post. You've given me lots to think about in regards to my questions.

 

You posed a question about what I had meant in this quote...

We do the literature as part of our English credit, and *generally* (but not always) we are reading literature that is written in or set around the history period we're currently covering, and where it overlaps with history we just make mention of it. Is that what you were asking??

 

Or, did you mean, how do we discuss the literature?? We use lit. guides as springboards into learning about specific literary elements and themes and then look for them and discuss them as we find them in the literature. We do writing assignments from ideas in the lit. guides, or if something specific comes up in the discussion that the DSs want to pursue in more depth.

 

I meant both. I didn't realize that the question was ambiguous in nature. It's difficult sometimes to convey the right meaning in typing out one's thoughts. lol

 

Thanks again. :-)