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I'm undecided about math; need advice


sagira
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Which is not like me at all. I usually either stick to something for the long haul, am reluctant to switch, and research so much that I'm confident what I like and what works for ds. However, I'm finding ds not at all sure in his math facts (shaky is the right word), and he finds math uninspiring, to say the least. He has actually asked for more color. I was afraid that color may distract him.

Lord knows the kid does NOT need any more distraction.

 

He's six, I know. We have been doing MCP Math and Miquon as a supplement. Do I stay, do I switch? What do I switch to? Do I use four programs :confused: for my rising second grader who could in reality be doing first grade math in the beginning of next year?

 

MEP looks good, but I don't know if the teacher (I) will print out religiously. I can see myself using this as a once in a while thing. No color, either.

 

Math Mammoth looks interesting, but I printed out a couple of pages, and.. meh. I like the clock explanations, and we used those. It's okay, but I'm not sure it gets the job done either. I feel ds needs "more".

 

I really like the looks of the Japanese math. It might work well for ds. He actually said the other day, how can I do the problem if I don't know how to do it? :001_huh: So it hit me, the child needs more than the explanation I offer him. He may need to read it himself. It's all there in the Japanese math. I like that. I would get the teacher's textbook, which would help me teach the concepts. I need all the help I can get in this area. Dh told me to go for it, he respects the Asians' ability in the maths and sciences.

 

I also read here from the veterans here that it's best to stick to a math program for the long haul. Does this apply to the 1st-2nd grade crowd? I had a plan: stick to MCP Math from K-6. The explanations don't seem to get to ds, though. He may be a "why" kind of guy. He sees the math better with Miquon, but we're already done with addition and subtraction in the Orange book, and I feel he's not ready for the multiplication if he doesn't have his facts down -- not even up to 10.

 

Math is my great weakness, and I don't know what to do. On the other hand, I need something to hold my hand as well, but I want a solid math foundation for ds.

 

I feel just like this: :willy_nilly:

 

My overarching question would be: How do you know a math program truly is not clicking/working, or it's just a question of maturity, repetition, time?

Edited by sagira
Added about another math curriculum
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Guest Cheryl in SoCal

For me the place to start was to figure out if I wanted spiral (Horizons, Saxon) or mastery (MUS, Chalkdust). When I first started homeschooling I didn't understand the difference, or really know there was a difference. We did Horizons for 4 years and it didn't work for us at all because my ds would just be learning something and then it would go to review. He ended up trying to learn multiple things in review as well as learn the new concept. It was NOT pretty;) I switched to Saxon, not realizing it was the same method (which is why many Horizons users move on to Saxon after 6th grade). Once I had thoroughly researched the differences between spiral and mastery, and knew I wanted mastery, it really helped narrow things down. Then I began looking at individual programs until I found the one that was the best fit.

 

I have never used any of the Asian maths but did want to comment on what your dh said about Asians ability when it comes to math. I will copy (I hope;)) the text from a post I wrote this morning on the high school board.

In my opinion one of the major differences Asians succeed in math is the difference in cultural attitude towards school. Pressure to do well in school is VERY high in many Asian countries. In South Korea elementary students go to school 6 days a week, in high school they are extremely long days (between school and studying the students get 4 or 5 hours sleep). If the student does poorly he/she brings shame to themselves and their family. Parents pay extremely high prices for private tutors/etc so their children will do well in school. They go to extra classes during vacations to "get ahead" of the other students. Everything regarding the students future is dependent on how well they do in school. If they don't do well in elementary school they won't get into the right high school, if they don't do well in high school they won't get into the right college, if they don't get into the right college they won't get the right job, etc. The pressure is incredible! It's not that they are advanced because the curriculum is advanced; their curriculum is advanced as a result of the culture.

 

The typical American student could never keep up because his/her culture is so different. Our students want to have fun, not spend hours/day at school and studying. Our students aren't willing to do what students in Asian countries are doing. I think there are more issues (such as the ones already stated) but I don't think they are main reasons that Asian countries are so far ahead of the US.

All that to say that I don't believe Asia is way ahead of us just because of curricula. I'm sure not saying Asian math curricula aren't outstanding (many may be); I just don't think that it's the curricula that is making the main difference.
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I really like the looks of the Japanese math. It might work well for ds. He actually said the other day, how can I do the problem if I don't know how to do it? :001_huh: So it hit me, the child needs more than the explanation I offer him. He may need to read it himself. It's all there in the Japanese math. I like that. I would get the teacher's textbook, which would help me teach the concepts. I need all the help I can get in this area. Dh told me to go for it, he respects the Asians' ability in the maths and sciences.

I'm sure I sound like a broken record recommending Math Mammoth all the time, but that's because I see so many parents who are having the same issues teaching math. I think especially for parents who do not feel comfortable with math, a program that requires the parent to read a TE or HIG first, and then teach the concepts to their children, is not a good fit. First of all, most TE's are written for teachers, who already know how to teach math, rather than parents who have no clue. Secondly, if the student doesn't understand the parent's explanation very well (possibly because the parent didn't understand the TE very well), then what?

 

Here is why I consider Maria Miller to be something of a mathematical saint: she has taken "Asian math," broken the concepts down into small steps, and provided very clear, explicit explanations and illustrations ~ all written directly to the student and packaged in a way that is incredibly easy for homeschoolers to use. So instead of being taught math by a parent who only managed to decipher the concepts the previous day after pouring over the TE, the student is taught directly by an exceptionally gifted math teacher with a knack for explaining complicated ideas in a way that kids "get."

 

MM is a complete math program: mastery-based, but with plenty of review; rigorous, but with such clear explanations that even non-mathy kids get it; focused on conceptual understanding and mental math strategies, but with more practice problems and facts drill than many other "conceptual" programs; colorful and engaging, but not busy or overwhelming. You don't need to supplement it, you don't need to schedule it, you don't need to teach it yourself. If you read the explanations at the beginning of each lesson as you hand it to your child, you will probably understand math better than if you had slogged through the TE/HIG of other programs.

 

I'm sure it won't work for every single kid, because no curriculum does, but I truly think that any parent starting out homeschooling should at least *try* Math Mammoth, because it might save them years of frustration and curriculum-hopping.

 

Jackie

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FI'm sure not saying Asian math curricula aren't outstanding (many may be); I just don't think that it's the curricula that is making the main difference.

Liping Ma's book explains in detail the differences between the way math is taught in Asia (China specifically) and America, and why the Asian approach to teaching math appears to be more successful.

 

Interestingly, the country which placed 2nd in math (behind South Korea) in an international comparison of 15-year-olds was Finland ~ which takes a decidedly laid-back, unpressured approach to education that is almost the polar opposite of Korean culture.

 

Jackie

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Liping Ma's book explains in detail the differences between the way math is taught in Asia (China specifically) and America, and why the Asian approach to teaching math appears to be more successful.

 

Interestingly, the country which placed 2nd in math (behind South Korea) in an international comparison of 15-year-olds was Finland ~ which takes a decidedly laid-back, unpressured approach to education that is almost the polar opposite of Korean culture.

 

Jackie

 

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself understood. I wasn't discounting Asian math curricula or saying US math curricula are better. What I meant was that curricula is only part of the factor, with cultural expectation playing a huge role. I don't think the US duplicating Asian math standards/curricula would yield the same results because there is much more to it than curricula. I wouldn't choose a math curricula just because it's Asian, just as I wouldn't discount one just because it's American.

 

I'm definitely more into the Finnish approach;)

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I would recommend using whatever sort of text you are comfortable with and alternating your teaching strategies instead of switching around books or using overlapping texts.

 

He is only 6. He simply might not be ready yet.

 

I would play domino/dice/deck of card games for addition/subtraction, leap frogging along a number line (draw chalk on the driveway and have at it!), etc.

 

Most of all, I wouldn't stress. :)

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I would recommend using whatever sort of text you are comfortable with and alternating your teaching strategies instead of switching around books or using overlapping texts.

 

He is only 6. He simply might not be ready yet.

 

I would play domino/dice/deck of card games for addition/subtraction, leap frogging along a number line (draw chalk on the driveway and have at it!), etc.

 

Most of all, I wouldn't stress. :)

:iagree:

Yes and it is too early to start switching texts. If he wants more color, my dd9 does her math using color pencils and my dd5 uses Colorix for hers plus colored pencils. Colored chalk on the sidewalk is terrific so is war - addition war especially. Cooking is great for 6yos. Don't stress. You have a long way until pre-calc (which was my demise).

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I'm sorry if I didn't make myself understood. I wasn't discounting Asian math curricula or saying US math curricula are better. What I meant was that curricula is only part of the factor, with cultural expectation playing a huge role. I don't think the US duplicating Asian math standards/curricula would yield the same results because there is much more to it than curricula. I wouldn't choose a math curricula just because it's Asian, just as I wouldn't discount one just because it's American.

 

I'm definitely more into the Finnish approach;)

 

Gotcha ;) I saw the studies, too, where the Finns are so ahead. They are actually the most ahead in everything as a whole, if I remember those graphs correctly. The Japanese are not scoring high in reading, for instance. The Finns are good all around.

 

Thank you for that perspective! Dh and I were talking how math is such a huge part of the lives of the Japanese, and how it's an integral part of their culture. I had forgotten about the honor in failing, and the extremely long hours in school. The high suicide rates among youth is coming back to me too :blink:

 

I don't expect ds to be a whiz at math, I just want him to understand it :) Really understand it, not halfway like I did. We're dealing with the same thing with music theory. I can wing it like a pro, and it turns out so can ds :tongue_smilie: With Math, until 7th grade that is.

 

I will have to take a serious look at Math Mammoth again. I love her Homeschool Math site, but didn't realize that she actually techniques used in Asia.. and simplified them for us. That sounds good. I still really like the samples I saw for the Japanese math, though. I've been looking for something that explained math directly to the student, in a colorful format.

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:iagree:

Yes and it is too early to start switching texts. If he wants more color, my dd9 does her math using color pencils and my dd5 uses Colorix for hers plus colored pencils. Colored chalk on the sidewalk is terrific so is war - addition war especially. Cooking is great for 6yos. Don't stress. You have a long way until pre-calc (which was my demise).

 

Thanks for the frankness. I just don't want to spend a ton supplementing. I guess I am worried as I feel I tanked in 7th grade because my level of knowledge of arithmetic wasn't up to par and I had huge gaps.

 

We love baking together, ds and I. Dd (2), loves both cooking and baking. More of that sounds fun! I love both! :)

 

Question: How do you play addition war? :blush:

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Like Corraleno said, read Liping Ma's book. I also found "The Teaching Gap" interesting along the same lines, but it addresses mostly middle school math.

 

My daughter really started to understand math better when we switched to Singapore, I love the different ways they explain things. Up to the 3rd grade level, it's really very easy to understand, often I don't even have to say anything, she just gets it by looking at the pictures.

 

After the 3rd grade level, you will have to study the material a bit more, but there are some good things to read to prepare, I've enjoyed "The Singapore Model Method" and "Elementary Math for Teachers," both are available at the Singapore website.

 

I also do a bit of RS, mostly just the abacus, it is great for showing borrowing and carrying. "Go to the dump" was also a helpful game to help with math facts.

 

The Standards Edition Home Instructor Guides are also helpful.

 

The text books are colorful, the workbooks are not so they can focus and work. My daughter likes to color in her workbook animals and other pictures sometimes.

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I don't know where we get the idea that the Finns are casual about education. They may start later than we do, but then there is serious attention payed to promoting mathematical reasoning and problem solving skills in the schools.

 

This is what is entirely lacking in traditional "American" math, including many of the math programs used by American homeschoolers. You can not treat mathematics like is is a series of "math facts" to be memorized and expect to have anything thing other than a very narrow sort of "success."

 

You can develop mathematical reasoning in schools (or at home) with methods that are fun and engaging, or in more of a "pressure-cooker" (I prefer the former). But beyond "stylistic" differences, both Finns and Singaporeans are making sure their children have deeper conceptual understanding of mathematics and problem solving that we do as a nation.

 

It does matter what math program one uses because the education a parent and child will derive from one that builds conceptual thinking will be very different than using one that focuses on simply on the memorization of math facts and the application of formulas without really understanding the concepts or reasoning behind what is being done.

 

Everyone on this forum knows to dread "see and say" when it comes to teaching reading. And yet one can read thread after thread about people failing in their attempts to instill an understanding (or love) of math in children using exactly the same sort of discredited means the public schools were/are pilloried for in their approach to reading, as the standard method in teaching mathematics uses these same means. It makes no sense.

 

One needs to teach the "phonics" of math if one hopes the average child is really going to understand and appreciate mathematics.

 

We've got a long way to go on that front.

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
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Thanks for the frankness. I just don't want to spend a ton supplementing. I guess I am worried as I feel I tanked in 7th grade because my level of knowledge of arithmetic wasn't up to par and I had huge gaps.

 

We love baking together, ds and I. Dd (2), loves both cooking and baking. More of that sounds fun! I love both! :)

 

Question: How do you play addition war? :blush:

 

First you have to teach the kids to play war with a deck of cards. If you don't play this, then ask and somebody will explain. Once the kids are comfortable with war, then you can teach addition war - each turn over two cards instead of one - and the person with the higher sum of the cards wins (face cards get 10 and I use 11 for aces just like in blackjack). It is fun and tons of practice. It is an easy supplement that isn't expensive.

 

6 is easy. Practice and practice and practice. It should be fun and easy. First grade is only addition within 20 and subtraction, even and odd and count by 2. Second grade is addtion with carrying and subtraction with borrowing with two to three digits plus counting by 2, 5, 10 - maybe 3 too if you are ambitious. In third grade nail down that addition and subtraction and start simple multiplication and division.... In the mean time, tell time to the hour, measure lots of things, play card games, play dice games (a pair of dice and some side walk chalk and let the kid make up some games they are pretty amazing), look at the page numbers in books. This stuff is easy as long as you remember that it is supposed to be easy ,and they aren't supposed to learn it all at one time.

 

And as for gaps and your fears. Your money and time will be better spent learning those maths yourself so that you can teach them when you get there than to start looking for a magic fix before you even have real problems. My advice to homeschool moms with young kids is always to relax about the young ones and spend more energy learning the higher material so that you are better prepared when what you are teaching gets harder. And make sure you double your cookie recipes because that is great math. :)

Edited by Karen in CO
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One needs to teach the "phonics" of math if one hopes the average child is really going to understand and appreciate mathematics.

 

We've got a long way to go on that front.

 

Bill

 

One thing to note here is that many of the parents on this board, don't have that understanding of mathematics themselves. So, I will always advocate that the parents first and foremost educate themselves about math before they simply switch to a different math provider and yank their kids from one math program to another. I think that it compounds the frustration of the parent and the student when they are blindly switching just because one is "spiral" and one is "mastery". With a good understanding of the math, a parent could use any math program for elementary school (or no program) and have terrific outcomes.

 

And now I'll get off my soapbox and go back to my corner. By the way - I've finished 20 pages of Heidegger this week so far and plan to sit with him and a beer pretty soon. :D I promise to read something on mathematical reasoning when I get done.

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One thing to note here is that many of the parents on this board, don't have that understanding of mathematics themselves. So, I will always advocate that the parents first and foremost educate themselves about math before they simply switch to a different math provider and yank their kids from one math program to another.I think that it compounds the frustration of the parent and the student when they are blindly switching just because one is "spiral" and one is "mastery". With a good understanding of the math, a parent could use any math program for elementary school (or no program) and have terrific outcomes.

 

Very wise advice!

 

And now I'll get off my soapbox and go back to my corner. By the way - I've finished 20 pages of Heidegger this week so far and plan to sit with him and a beer pretty soon. :D

 

I'm impressed. I got distracted and started re-reading Moby Dick :D

 

Bill

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Gotcha ;) I saw the studies, too, where the Finns are so ahead. They are actually the most ahead in everything as a whole, if I remember those graphs correctly. The Japanese are not scoring high in reading, for instance. The Finns are good all around.

 

I will have to take a serious look at Math Mammoth again. I love her Homeschool Math site, but didn't realize that she actually techniques used in Asia.. and simplified them for us.

 

Well, Maria Miller is Finnish (born, raised, and trained in Finland), and she seems to combine the best of both worlds (Finnish & Asian). :001_smile:

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One thing to note here is that many of the parents on this board, don't have that understanding of mathematics themselves. So, I will always advocate that the parents first and foremost educate themselves about math before they simply switch to a different math provider and yank their kids from one math program to another. I think that it compounds the frustration of the parent and the student when they are blindly switching just because one is "spiral" and one is "mastery". With a good understanding of the math, a parent could use any math program for elementary school (or no program) and have terrific outcomes.

 

.

 

Very wise advice!

 

 

 

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

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With a good understanding of the math, a parent could use any math program for elementary school (or no program) and have terrific outcomes.

 

 

Re-visiting this last point, many of us (including many of us who earned very good grades in math) lack the "good understanding of the math" that is the prerequisite to premise any program (or no program) could be make to work.

 

And not everyone is in the position to give themselves a thorough math education before they begin teaching their children. So for the overwhelming majority of people using a math program that will educate both parent and child is vitally important.

 

Bill

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I don't know where we get the idea that the Finn's are casual about education.

According to this BBC article:

According to the OECD, Finnish children spend the fewest number of hours in the classroom in the developed world.

 

Children in Finland only start main school at age seven. The idea is that before then they learn best when they're playing and by the time they finally get to school they are keen to start learning.

 

The educational system's success in Finland seems to be part cultural. Pupils study in a relaxed and informal atmosphere.

 

The system's success is built on the idea of less can be more. There is an emphasis on relaxed schools...

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the course *content* wasn't rigorous, only that their general approach to education was considerably more relaxed than the Asian approach.

 

They may start later than we do, but then there is serious attention payed to promoting mathematical reasoning and problem solving skills in the schools...But beyond "stylistic" differences, both Finns and Singaporeans are making sure their children have deeper conceptual understanding of mathematics and problem solving that we do as a nation.

Yes, exactly! I'm sorry I wasn't clearer ~ I meant that since Finns do not participate in the kind of intensive practices common in Korea (hothousing, long hours, intensive tutoring, etc), and yet they come 2nd in math, it demonstrates that it really *is* the curriculum they use that makes the difference, not the intense parental and cultural pressure Asian kids are under.

 

I hope that makes sense....

Jackie

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With a good understanding of the math, a parent could use any math program for elementary school (or no program) and have terrific outcomes.

I agree to a point, but I would add that understanding math (or any other subject) and being able to teach/explain it are not necessarily the same thing. I know many people who are truly brilliant in certain subjects, but they are hopeless when it comes to explaining the concepts to other people. Often when someone has a very deep, intuitive understanding of a subject, the concepts seem obvious and self-evident to them; it can be hard for them to understand why a student isn't "getting" something that seems so obvious, so they can have a hard time breaking the concept apart and explaining it in different ways.

 

I think the best math teachers ~ and the best math curricula ~ combine a deep conceptual understanding of the subject with a special gift for "translating" the concepts into language students can understand.

 

Jackie

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Yes, exactly! I'm sorry I wasn't clearer ~ I meant that since Finns do not participate in the kind of intensive practices common in Korea (hothousing, long hours, intensive tutoring, etc), and yet they come 2nd in math, it demonstrates that it really *is* the curriculum they use that makes the difference, not the intense parental and cultural pressure Asian kids are under.

 

I hope that makes sense....

Jackie

 

I know what you mean.

 

I'm just afraid when people see "relaxed" and/or "delayed" the conclusion drawn might be that it is okay to delay a math education that ends up not teaching problem solving, logic, and mathematical reasoning and feeling "relaxed" about the choice.

 

That's not what the Finn's do, nor what the Singaporeans do.

 

And one can "not delay" a math education and still have the experience be fun and rewarding. Too often there is a false-dichotomy presented (not by you :D) that either you have "hot-housing" or you do nothing. When there is a 3rd way, where the building blocks of mathematical reasoning are developed in a young child by means that are fun and age appropriate.

 

None of which is to suggest you disagree ;)

 

Bill

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6 is easy. Practice and practice and practice. It should be fun and easy. First grade is only addition within 20 and subtraction, even and odd and count by 2. Second grade is addtion with carrying and subtraction with borrowing with two to three digits plus counting by 2, 5, 10 - maybe 3 too if you are ambitious. In third grade nail down that addition and subtraction and start simple multiplication and division.... In the mean time, tell time to the hour, measure lots of things, play card games, play dice games (a pair of dice and some side walk chalk and let the kid make up some games they are pretty amazing), look at the page numbers in books. This stuff is easy as long as you remember that it is supposed to be easy, and they aren't supposed to learn it all at one time.

 

And as for gaps and your fears. Your money and time will be better spent learning those maths yourself so that you can teach them when you get there than to start looking for a magic fix before you even have real problems. My advice to homeschool moms with young kids is always to relax about the young ones and spend more energy learning the higher material so that you are better prepared when what you are teaching gets harder. And make sure you double your cookie recipes because that is great math. :)

 

Now I know what you're talking about. Thanks! We triple recipes here -- hehe. Cookie monsters in the house :D

 

Bill, I appreciate your insight. I think the answer lies between extreme rigor coupled with over the top expectations and only fun. I like fun. I want to have more fun in math. While having fun, I want ds to understand concepts as well as learn skills. I do have Family Math, but there are not so many activities/games for young children. I also want some rigor. I want ds to be able to see the order and logic of math, but at the same time learn the skills he needs to compete in this world globally.

 

May be a bit too much to ask, eh?

Edited by sagira
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And not everyone is in the position to give themselves a thorough math education before they begin teaching their children. So for the overwhelming majority of people using a math program that will educate both parent and child is vitally important.

:iagree: and for me, that program has been RightStart math. RS teaches math using hands on activities, exploration and games. It has been a great fit for our family. I am learning mental math along with dd, and for the first time in my life, I enjoy math. The TM walks the parent through each lesson and is so well organized. And my dd's understanding of math is far deeper than mine at her age. We all love it.

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Bill, I appreciate your insight. I think the answer lies between extreme rigor coupled with over the top expectations and only fun. I like fun. I want to have more fun in math. While having fun, I want ds to understand concepts as well as learn skills. I do have Family Math, but there are not so many activities/games for young children. I also want some rigor. I want ds to be able to see the order and logic of math, but at the same time learn the skills he needs to compete in this world globally.

 

I think one can have it all. I really do.

 

Bill

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I think the answer lies between extreme rigor coupled with over the top expectations and only fun. I like fun. I want to have more fun in math. While having fun, I want ds to understand concepts as well as learn skills. I do have Family Math, but there are not so many activities/games for young children. I also want some rigor. I want ds to be able to see the order and logic of math, but at the same time learn the skills he needs to compete in this world globally.

 

May be a bit too much to ask, eh?

I completely agree, and don't think it's too much to ask:001_smile:

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Here is why I consider Maria Miller to be something of a mathematical saint: she has taken "Asian math," broken the concepts down into small steps, and provided very clear, explicit explanations and illustrations ~ all written directly to the student and packaged in a way that is incredibly easy for homeschoolers to use. So instead of being taught math by a parent who only managed to decipher the concepts the previous day after pouring over the TE, the student is taught directly by an exceptionally gifted math teacher with a knack for explaining complicated ideas in a way that kids "get."
DD is understanding it better and it is easier for me. Win win! This is after using Abeka, MUS and Horizons. (Out of those three I think Horizons actually worked the best for her. It was me who didn't think I liked it.)

 

Oh... for math facts Abeka is the bomb! I love love love the speed drill book. Nothing else got through to DD. They also actually have you write the new set of facts on the board for the first couple of days. DD can peak at the board while doing her speed drill for those first couple of days while it sinks in.

Edited by Lovedtodeath
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Thanks for all the replies! I will definitely borrow the Li Ping Ma book. I want to read about teaching elementary math.

 

As for continued education, I just bought Foerster's Algebra so I can start wrestling with it during the Summer ;)

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I have used BJU, Horizons, Singapore, McRuffy, Math Mammoth, MCP, Saxon, Abeka, Living Math, CSMP, and various other unknown/or not popular workbooks for math. We also love to use Times Tales, computer games, and manipulatives. I thought I preferred a traditional workbook, coupled with manipulatives but now I am not so sure. I think you can use anything as long as you are aware of how to explain it conceptually, as was mentioned. A lot of what I am seeing in Miquon (which we have just started) are things that we have already done in our homeschool. (so far anyway) So, I do agree that it’s the way it’s taught, rather than the materials. But there is something to be said for the Asian method of mental math; however you get that in there, it does help.

 

**I will add that I have not come across a problem with skipping around in math curricula. And I would also like to add Teaching Textbooks and LOF (two of my favs) to this rather embarrassingly long list of math curricula. Snort.

 

I love to think that you can have it all. :)

 

Best wishes on your math endeavors.

Edited by lovemykids
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Often when someone has a very deep, intuitive understanding of a subject, the concepts seem obvious and self-evident to them; it can be hard for them to understand why a student isn't "getting" something that seems so obvious, so they can have a hard time breaking the concept apart and explaining it in different ways.

 

Yup. And it's really frustrating when you understand a concept and just don't "get" why other people around you don't understand it when it's so plainly obvious and simplistic to you.

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On the advice of folks here, I bought and am over halfway through the Liping Ma book. I am math-phobic and have always been. Although I am masters degree educated, math has always been my weak point. (Just giving the background so those reading won't confuse me for a "mathy" person.:tongue_smilie:)

 

I have finally begun to understand (after reading the Liping Ma book) the true difference between memorizing and performing algorithms and understand math on a conceptual level, which never happened for me. I embarked upon this "conceptual understanding of math" quest as a result of having two boys who are using Singapore math. I knew that I needed to understand the way they were learning. In spite of me and my many math failings, my boys are both very adept at conceptual math and performing math calculations in their heads that I cannot perform.

 

My desire for my kids to have the math education that I did not has caused me to overcome my math fear enough to educate myself with the Liping Ma book. I am not someone who enjoys this. I had to force myself to order the book from amazon.com and begin reading it. I did it for my kids, though, and I am glad that I did.

 

I hope that helps you some tiny bit. It is just my own experience of trying to understand the math program that my kids are doing and finding, in the process, that I am not "bad at math", as I have believed for so many years. Rather, I was not taught in a conceptual way so math never "made sense" to me.

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This is a really important thread.

 

I loved the BBC video so much that I suggested we emigrate to Finland, but my husband seems to have no interest in any place that has long, dark, cold winters.

 

I like the Japanese books too, but I feel like I'm missing something huge without the background teachers have. I wish I knew more about Finnish education. Since apparently I'll be studying from abroad.

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Thanks for all the replies! I will definitely borrow the Li Ping Ma book. I want to read about teaching elementary math.

 

 

I think you will find it a very rewarding and illuminating read.

 

On the advice of folks here, I bought and am over halfway through the Liping Ma book. I am math-phobic and have always been. Although I am masters degree educated, math has always been my weak point. (Just giving the background so those reading won't confuse me for a "mathy" person.:tongue_smilie:)

 

I have finally begun to understand (after reading the Liping Ma book) the true difference between memorizing and performing algorithms and understand math on a conceptual level, which never happened for me. I embarked upon this "conceptual understanding of math" quest as a result of having two boys who are using Singapore math. I knew that I needed to understand the way they were learning. In spite of me and my many math failings, my boys are both very adept at conceptual math and performing math calculations in their heads that I cannot perform.

 

My desire for my kids to have the math education that I did not has caused me to overcome my math fear enough to educate myself with the Liping Ma book. I am not someone who enjoys this. I had to force myself to order the book from amazon.com and begin reading it. I did it for my kids, though, and I am glad that I did.

 

I hope that helps you some tiny bit. It is just my own experience of trying to understand the math program that my kids are doing and finding, in the process, that I am not "bad at math", as I have believed for so many years. Rather, I was not taught in a conceptual way so math never "made sense" to me.

 

Our experiences are very similar (except oddly, I'm enjoying the second-time-around math education immensely) but the bottom line is many of us grew up thinking that we were either "bad at math" or that math was "boring" because the way it was taught made no sense. So the subject made little sense.

 

Math should be fun and comprehensible.

 

Bill

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I think you will find it a very rewarding and illuminating read.

 

Our experiences are very similar (except oddly, I'm enjoying the second-time-around math education immensely) but the bottom line is many of us grew up thinking that we were either "bad at math" or that math was "boring" because the way it was taught made no sense. So the subject made little sense.

 

Math should be fun and comprehensible.

 

Bill

 

I'm starting to be intrigued by math and how it works. A long way from where I was -- it's a start :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you, Texasmama et al. You have made me think about math teaching in a new light. MCP is not bad perse, just not hitting it from the right angle. I rather liked MCP, and I still do, but I'm anxious to teach from a different perspective. My arithmetic is pretty good, I can do triple digit addition and subtraction in my head, although multiplication hurts my head lol I CAN, though. I learned mental math from my father, RIP, who was born in 1929 and was taught the old-fashioned way. This way is almost identical to the way I see things explained in Japanese/Math Mammoth/Singapore, with the added bonus of pictures. Ds and I are very similar, including in being very visual.

 

I feel that either

 

Japanese

Math Mammoth

 

using Miquon as a supplement and adding games as Karen mentioned, would work for us.

These last few weeks we've been playing many more games, and ds is not only having fun, but getting comfortable with his addition as well. He likes playing war, and adding with dice, and addition war we're playing as well.

 

I like BOTH Japanese and Math Mammoth! Going through these programs give me a solid review of arithmetic as a foundation for algebra. I may go with MM's Blue Series as a topical supplement, and use Japanese as my main program. MM would add drill, and ds likes and understands the sample pages. With MCP he would ask me, frustrated, How can I do the problems when I don't know what to do?

 

I like Miquon as a discovery approach and wouldn't ditch it. Hence, my solution is: on Fridays we do Miquon Math labs and games.

Liping Ma's book hasn't come in yet, and I'm getting impatient!

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Stripe and/or Spy Car, does the Japanese program include tests?

 

Thanks!

 

 

No.

 

The workbooks are divided into A and B like SM for each grade level. There is a grade level review at the end of the 'b' workbooks that might be used as a short test.

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Interestingly, the country which placed 2nd in math (behind South Korea) in an international comparison of 15-year-olds was Finland ~ which takes a decidedly laid-back, unpressured approach to education that is almost the polar opposite of Korean culture.

 

Jackie

 

Which is where the author of Math Mammoth is from...she's a highly degreed math teacher from Finland (2nd in the world for math) that has written wonderful math books that teach highly successful Asian math methods. It's been a great combo here!:001_smile:

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Stripe and/or Spy Car, does the Japanese program include tests?

 

Thanks!

 

Well, just speaking on having Level One, there is the main book which is roughly analogous to the "Textbooks" in Primary Mathematics (Singapore) and separate Workbooks, but there is very little "text."

 

I believe there is a separate teachers guide to the series (digital only?) that I don't have. Not to dissuade you, but the Japanese Math program would not have had enough recourses for *me* had it been our main program, and my introduction to teaching conceptual math. Now that we are using the materials as sort of a trail-sweep I see them in a new light, as my knowledge has grown enough where filling in the blanks is second nature, but I had to get there first.

 

I haven't use Math Mammoth, but I think you'd be on safer ground using it (or Singapore) unless you fell well grounded in teaching this type of math, because of the lack of teacher resources. Perhaps Ray or Stripe could speak to the whether the teaching guide would provide enough to a parent that my concerns would be invalidated. It is possible.

 

But there is very little text in the textbook. The concepts are well shown pictorially. And one can do story-time with these as with the Singapore text. For lovers of saturated glossy color the Japanese materials won't disappoint.

 

I did not have a good way to read a dense teachers guide as a PDF, as I generally want to get away from the computer and read before bed. So I never got this e-book. That situation has changed with the iPad, so I'm curious myself if anyone has insight on the teacher guides.

 

I will also say the Japanese materials are light enough the amount of material that you could likely use both, although I'm not sure of the time demands of MM.

 

Sorry if I'm muddying the waters.

 

Bill

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Here is why I consider Maria Miller to be something of a mathematical saint: she has taken "Asian math," broken the concepts down into small steps, and provided very clear, explicit explanations and illustrations ~ all written directly to the student and packaged in a way that is incredibly easy for homeschoolers to use. So instead of being taught math by a parent who only managed to decipher the concepts the previous day after pouring over the TE, the student is taught directly by an exceptionally gifted math teacher with a knack for explaining complicated ideas in a way that kids "get."

 

MM is a complete math program: mastery-based, but with plenty of review; rigorous, but with such clear explanations that even non-mathy kids get it; focused on conceptual understanding and mental math strategies, but with more practice problems and facts drill than many other "conceptual" programs; colorful and engaging, but not busy or overwhelming. You don't need to supplement it, you don't need to schedule it, you don't need to teach it yourself. If you read the explanations at the beginning of each lesson as you hand it to your child, you will probably understand math better than if you had slogged through the TE/HIG of other programs.

 

Jackie

 

:iagree:

 

I would describe my son as non-mathy, but he does very well with MM. I listen to him complain and grumble, but then watch him easily do the math and wonder what the heck he was complaining about. I very seldom have to re-explain the instructions to him (unless he just isn't paying attention). You can easily add or reduce the amount of practice depending on the childs needs. Right now for example I randomly add in a subtracting practice sheet because I have found that he "forgets" to borrow. Or if it's a concept he gets I'll only have him do every other problem on the page. When it came to memorizing multiplication facts we went really slow. He isn't as quick with answers as I'd like, so he is going to become close friends with Timez Attack this summer. ;)

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I urge anyone interested in learning more about the Japanese approach to look at the websites I've previously recommended, namely those by Tad Watanabe, who works with Global Resources.

 

None of the "teaching guide" materials do not include tests. They don't provide this, as far as I know. There are some one-page review type problems in the Grade 1 workbooks; perhaps those would be an acceptable substitute.

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Guest nojo

So I would like to also ask advice about this topic. I've started homeschooling this thanksgiving this fall, two daughters, a second grader and a first grader. My older daughter loves math. She sees patterns, math comes naturally to her, it is her favorite subject. She has always wanted to do math oriented things and we have not really hit a topic that is hard for her, she wants to do extra pages each day. We are doing Singapore math. It seems to be a good fit for the way she thinks. My other daughter, on the other hand, is the polar opposite. I can tell this is not a good fit. I am not teaching them at the same level, but they don't process information in the same way. She can do the addition and subtraction problems, but not without her fingers. She doesn't easily see the patterns in the math. It is always a challenge, and she strongly dislikes math. She is the type of kid that has never thought about how many fingers she actually has, (when I asked her one day she started to count them, and she's 7!) I understand, math isn't my strength (not that either of my children will ever know if I can help it). I want to help her succeed, but I don't know the right lingo. What would help her. I know she needs to know the basics more strongly, we're playing games to sneak in practice. Does she need a program with constant drill? Do I need a mastery approach or a spiral approach? Does she need to fully get it to move on, or to constantly be reminded to understand? Will the light bulb finally go off one day and she'll get it? Right now, I know she needs to have the facts to 10 mastered before we move on to bigger and better facts, but I don't know how to get there without killing her desire to learn. Any advice about this specifically how to help this type of learner would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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For me the place to start was to figure out if I wanted spiral (Horizons, Saxon) or mastery (MUS, Chalkdust). When I first started homeschooling I didn't understand the difference, or really know there was a difference. We did Horizons for 4 years and it didn't work for us at all because my ds would just be learning something and then it would go to review. He ended up trying to learn multiple things in review as well as learn the new concept. It was NOT pretty;) I switched to Saxon, not realizing it was the same method (which is why many Horizons users move on to Saxon after 6th grade). Once I had thoroughly researched the differences between spiral and mastery, and knew I wanted mastery, it really helped narrow things down. Then I began looking at individual programs until I found the one that was the best fit.

 

I have never used any of the Asian maths but did want to comment on what your dh said about Asians ability when it comes to math. I will copy (I hope;)) the text from a post I wrote this morning on the high school board.

All that to say that I don't believe Asia is way ahead of us just because of curricula. I'm sure not saying Asian math curricula aren't outstanding (many may be); I just don't think that it's the curricula that is making the main difference.

 

Thanks for that perspective. Which math did you end up choosing? Do your children get tired of sticking with a certain topic until it's mastered? How do you decide that it is mastered? Sorry if others already asked this...I didn't read all the posts!

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Thanks for that perspective. Which math did you end up choosing? Do your children get tired of sticking with a certain topic until it's mastered? How do you decide that it is mastered? Sorry if others already asked this...I didn't read all the posts!

 

When I first started homeschooling I didn't know the difference between spiral or mastery and used Horizons. I tried to make it work for 4 years, which was 4 years too long. Then we switched to Saxon (not realizing it's very similar to Horizons) and only made it through 3 quarters with it. They were both a nightmare for my ds. That was when I started doing more in-depth research. I went with MUS and started my children over at the first level because they had a terrible foundation and we've been with MUS ever since (they are now in 8th and 9th grade, and just finishing Algebra 1). I recently added Life of Fred for extra practice/review and more life application, which I plan on keeping a semester behind MUS so that everything is introduced in MUS.

 

ETA that the spiral approach kept them from really mastering anything, and taught how to "do" math instead of understand math. One son did horribly because he was never given enough time to learn anything completely while the other looked really great on the surface because he could quickly memorize what to do but didn't understand what he was doing.

Edited by Cheryl in SoCal
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None of the "teaching guide" materials do not include tests. They don't provide this, as far as I know. There are some one-page review type problems in the Grade 1 workbooks; perhaps those would be an acceptable substitute.

 

If you have the time, could you clarify? I'm not following.

 

Bill

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Liping Ma's book explains in detail the differences between the way math is taught in Asia (China specifically) and America, and why the Asian approach to teaching math appears to be more successful.

 

Interestingly, the country which placed 2nd in math (behind South Korea) in an international comparison of 15-year-olds was Finland ~ which takes a decidedly laid-back, unpressured approach to education that is almost the polar opposite of Korean culture.

 

Jackie

:iagree:

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If you have the time, could you clarify? I'm not following.

 

Bill

Sorry -- Clarify what? Well, I'll try.

 

I was responding to your having said you hadn't read the teaching guides. I have. They don't include tests. They flesh out the course of study. I haven't seen tests available anywhere else. Except for something like a year-end test, such as the Grade 6 and Grade 9 problems from the Japanese Ministry of Education Tad Watanabe provides on his website.

 

As to the idea of the workbook, there are occasional review pages. If you look at the answer keys to the workbook (all of which are available on Global Education Resources' website) you can see, for example, p. 20 in the 1A workbook is called "Check." P 35 is "Check (2)" and P 48 is "Check (3)." You could use these as a test, or just review, as they are cumulative in their scope. I suspect that the same is true for other years. Looking at the answer keys is a very good way to get a feel for these books.

Edited by stripe
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Sorry -- Clarify what? Well, I'll try.

 

I was responding to your having said you hadn't read the teaching guides. I have. They don't include tests. I haven't seen tests available anywhere else.

 

As to the idea of the workbook, there are occasional review pages. If you look at the answer keys to the workbook (all of which are available on Global Education Resources' website) you can see, for example, p. 20 in the 1A workbook is called "Check." P 35 is "Check (2)" and P 48 is "Check (3)." You could use these as a test, or just review, as they are cumulative in their scope. Looking at the answer keys is a very good way to get a feel for these books.

 

It is time for me to get my eyes checked. I read "tests" as text :lol:

 

*never mind*

 

Or one question. For a "normal person", meaning one who wasn't a math intuitive or one stepped in conceptual math education, do you feel the teachers guides for the Japanese Math program would give a parent enough context and information to use this program as a " main text"?

 

I know I feel very comfortable with textbook and workbooks now, but if these (alone) had been my introduction to teaching my child math they would not have been enough for me. Yes, we could successfully have done the books, but my education as a teacher would not be what I'd desire from the student texts alone. And I wonder how well the teaching guides might fill that gaps for others? As it remains the one "hole" I see for someone like Sagira, and I simply don't know if the teaching guides would fill that hole?

 

Bill

 

Bill

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I urge anyone interested in learning more about the Japanese approach to look at the websites I've previously recommended, namely those by Tad Watanabe, who works with Global Resources.

 

None of the "teaching guide" materials do not include tests. They don't provide this, as far as I know. There are some one-page review type problems in the Grade 1 workbooks; perhaps those would be an acceptable substitute.

 

Thanks. I've read parts of his blog. It's really interesting, even though he concentrates on geometry and Georgia state standards. I loved to see the examples of the Kyoiku Dojinsha workbooks. It helped seal the deal for me, as far as Japanese math is concerned. I read his information about first and second grades. I like what I see. To me, it seems so self-explanatory. Would a teaching manual even be necessary? Useful? What are some ways of presenting the material? Concrete examples? Perhaps I need to delve deeper in Watanabe's blog and see if can find answers to these questions. Maybe I'll e-mail him.

 

I guess the pictures and short explanations are so clear to me, I feel that I can explain, illustrate and so forth to ds. Maybe I'm too optimistic (a fault of mine :D). My arithmetic is fairly solid, especially addition and subtraction. It's multiplication and division (and especially fractions, decimals and geometry) that I need a review of. I feel that going through the way the Japanese explain things (and possibly Math Mammoth), I could tackle Algebra (Foerster's specifically) and be able to teach ds, and later dd, more effectively.

 

Spy Car, to summarize what you were saying, you suggest me acquiring a complete (Light Blue Series) Math Mammoth to benefit from the explanations, and use Japanese Math as a supplement (with Miquon on the side)? I need to make a decision if I want to take advantage of the discount -- deadline June 1st!

 

Secretly I want to get the whole Japanese textbook series, as it's stated on the website to get an overview of the whole subject for teachers it's really useful. I don't know if dh will go for spending almost $200 in total for math this year in addition to the 200 of Muzzy Spanish. Am I making sense, or adding to the murkiness of the water? :)

Edited by sagira
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Or one question. For a "normal person", meaning one who wasn't a math intuitive or one stepped in conceptual math education, do you feel the teachers guides for the Japanese Math program would give a parent enough context and information to use this program as a " main text"?

 

Mmmm, it's not the Singapore teacher's guide or home instructor's manual, and I have to say, there's not an enormous amount of hand-holding. It basically is a discussion of what's covered in each year with lots of charts by sub-area (e.g. geometry). There is a brief discussion of some components, e.g. introducing the concept of 0 in grade 1, how to introduce arithmetic with 2-digit numbers, but it's pretty...broad. I personally had/have misgivings that there's no way I would compare to a well-prepared Japanese elem school teacher who has weekly meetings with her peers to brainstorm teaching methods.

 

Sagira -- what's the pre-June 1 discount?

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