Where to turn next? Sorry this got so long

[Pam H]

You guys have got to be tired of me coming and whining to you about my oldest challenge. He's 12yo now. I become more and more bewildered by him. I'm going to give the whole sordid story here so that you will have the full picture.

 

100 EZ Ls didn't teach him how to read, neither did LLATL, WRTR, Phonics Pathways, finally we worked our way through a sweet Rod & Staff reader called "The Kitten in the Well". He was so proud of himself.

 

So was I. When he was 9yo and in the beginning 4th grade, I handed him a 4th grade reader. His face turned white and I thought he was going to be sick. He said he couldn't read it. That's when I found you guys.

 

I contacted a Dev Opt from the COVD website. They said he had 20/20 vision; with "low hyperopia, accomodative instability, convergence insufficiency, ocular-motor dysfunction, possible visual perceptual delays by history". They recommended vision therapy, which we could not swing at the time.

 

I contacted Dr. Stephey. He was a breath of fresh air. He provided us with vision therapy software and told me how to run a battery of tests. The CTOPP, TOWRE, Visual Memory,DEM Scoresheet, Listening Questionaire. I don't remember anything about how to read the scores on these, but I still have them.

 

Dr. Stephey also suggested we pick up a set of blue lens sunglasses at the dime store. They were like a magic wand. He read his first multi-syllable word that day!

 

We completed the vision therapy and moved during the next year. I lost touch with Dr. Stephey. I really couldn't tell much difference in ds's ability to read.

 

He scored a 1 on the reading section of our new state test. The IOWA. I contacted a friend who is a teacher in the local school system and asked if she knew anybody that could give ds the Woodcock Johnson test. She put me in contact with her friend, the special ed teacher in the local elem school. His scores:

WRAT REading Test Results -

Word Identification: 2.5

Word Attack: 3.1

Word Comprehension: 3.2

Passage Comprehension: 2.7

 

She also tested his Visual Span - slightly below avg.

Visual Closure - slightly below avg

visual sequential memory - low

 

He took these tests the day he turned 11yo. The teacher told me that he was a right brained learner, he had global tendencies. What do I do with that?

 

I purchased BrainSkills convinced that if I helped his cognitive skills and his working memory, it would help. He had great self confidence while we were working on that. He is a stutterer, and did not stutter while we worked together on BrainSkills. That was the only improvement we saw.

 

He is seeing a speech therapist for his stuttering. She believes he talks like he reads. She says his stuttering is NOT a true stutter, he stumbles and uses a lot of fillers.

 

We worked our way through Rewards. He is getting grammar with Shurley Grammar. The overteaching method of spelling is the only thing I've found that has made sense to his spelling ability. I am seeing some improvement there. He insists that he doesn't need his blue glasses anymore.

 

He says that "vowels scare him". That is where he has the most trouble reading or spelling. We use MUS. He does very well with math. He is in the Advanced Classic book. I just tested him on finding the area of a circle. He aced the number problems in five minutes, there were 8 of them. Then there were 12 word problems covering the same concept, he missed all but two.

 

I bought, read and sold Overcoming Dyslexia twice. I'm wondering again if dyslexia is truly what's going on with him. Not that it matters, he has a brother dx with PDD-NOS and another one with an undx something.

 

He just turned 12. He's on the brink of puberty. I'm failing him.

 

What would you do?

[Ottakee]

A few ideas.

 

First, I would see about a complete neuropsychological evaluation. This can help with LDs, IQ, any ADD/ADHD, learning styles, etc. to help you figure him out.

 

For reading, I have not found anything that has worked as well for us as the I See Sam sets of books. http://iseesam.com/index.htm There is another site that sells them but it is down right now. They might be quite easy for him at first but they really do work. You could start at a higher level if he is fluent with the lower level books.

 

Then, I would also look at http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/ Their materials are designed for kids with LDs. The Dancing Bears program is great for reading fluency and decoding while the Apples and Pears program is tops for spelling. You can see the entire programs by clicking on the books. Esp. read the introduction to the Dancing Bears program where they talk about using the cursor (a notched 3x5 card). This is WONDERFUL for eye tracking problems.

 

You can also join a wonderful yahoo group for Beginning Reading Instruction (the I See Sam books) which is a wealth of information and allows you access to reading specialists from around the world that have worked with very tough kids.

 

Lastly, does he seem to have ADHD? If so, treating that MIGHT be very helpful. My 11dd has ADHD and she just could NOT focus long enough to learn to read. We started meds and within 6 months she had gained about 2 years of reading ability. She also has some LDs but the meds for ADHD allowed her to focus long enough to learn to read.

[Pam H]

Ottakee,

 

I didn't see anything specifically called "I See Sam" books. Are they the 7 Fluency Builders? Also could you point me to the other site, I'll look for it to come up in order to check prices.

 

My guy is very ADD without the H. Again, no official dx. ADD is extremely hard to research on the net. These two terms are interchangable and one just does NOT apply to my ds. DS is very laid back. He can stay focused on the TV for as long as I'll let him. He doesn't care for the computer or video games, for which I'm thankful.

[Mandamom]

My guy is very ADD without the H. Again, no official dx. ADD is extremely hard to research on the net. These two terms are interchangable and one just does NOT apply to my ds.>>>>

 

The new diagnostic terminology is that ADD is now known as ADHD- Inattentive rather than the old terminology of ADD. So, in order to find out about ADD you have to research ADHD for more information.

 

My dh is ADHD Inattentive type (diagnosed last year)

[Laurie4b]

I agree with OTtakke. Get a good neuropsych evaluation. Ask for a copy of the report before you meet with the examiner so that you can read it yourself and get questions ready. Then, when she explains it, it will sink in better. Make sure that you understand the results, even if you have to go back for a second interpretive. Or take someone with you (like your friend the teacher) who may be more used to the jargon, so that there is an additional set of ears.

 

In looking over what you've tried for reading, I'm surprised that you could get through REWARDS. How did you do that? Did he really "get" it? Other than REWARDS (which goes quickly if you have trouble with vowels), I don't see any programs that are remedial in nature. Because of his age at this point, I would suggest a reading tutor. Try a Phonographix tutor first, and if that doesn't work within 3 months, switch to an Orton-Gillingham type of tutor. Wilson is an Orton-Gillingham method. There are also some just plain old O-G folks out there. If he needs OG, it's going to take about a year to get him up to grade level. Phonographix works faster if it works.

 

While he's getting his tutoring, you can watch and then reinforce the concepts at home.

 

Also, don't forget to do "repeated oral readings" for fluency at home. These are so key to reading success, but often get left out of the mix.

[Ottakee]

The I See Sam books are the "Little Books". How well does he read now? Does he know his silent words, vowel combinations, r-controlled vowels, etc? The Little Books might seem to simple at first but he might need to start very simple to fill in any gaps in his learning and build confidence.

 

You might check out http://www.amenclinic.com for the online diagnostic test--I think it is near the bottom. He explains various "types" of ADD/ADHD, some nutritional things that might help, medications that are likely to help, etc.

 

Not knowing your son, it could be that treating the ADD would help his academics as he could focus and retain the information a lot longer.

[Pam H]

Laurie4b,

 

As far as how we made it through REWARDS, he performs well but forgets easily. I have to remind him almost daily how to divide. If I ask him to chunk up a word, it takes a while, but he can usually get it as long as the vowels don't prove to be an exception.

 

How do I tell if the neuropsych is good? I took my 3yo to a neuropsych at a developmental center in our general vicinity only to find out that my ST and OT have a poor opinion of this center. :001_huh:

 

How do I find a tutor? I own Reading Reflex. I have trouble knowing where to start with ds. He can read, it just takes him a while. By the time he gets a sentence out, he's put forth so much effort and taken so much time, he has no idea what he's read and neither do I.

 

We live in the country, on a mountain. Finding help is hard enough. My dh already works three jobs trying to make ends meet. I do so appreciate your help!

[Pam H]

The new diagnostic terminology is that ADD is now known as ADHD- Inattentive rather than the old terminology of ADD. So, in order to find out about ADD you have to research ADHD for more information.

 

My dh is ADHD Inattentive type (diagnosed last year)

 

 

Thank you, Mandamom! This is very helpful. How did you get your dx? How has having a dx helped you?

[Pam H]

The I See Sam books are the "Little Books". How well does he read now? Does he know his silent words, vowel combinations, r-controlled vowels, etc? The Little Books might seem to simple at first but he might need to start very simple to fill in any gaps in his learning and build confidence.

 

 

Not knowing your son, it could be that treating the ADD would help his academics as he could focus and retain the information a lot longer.

 

Ottakee,

 

He can read, it just takes him a while. By the time he gets a sentence out, he's put forth so much effort and taken so much time, he has no idea what he's read and neither do I. He performs well but forgets easily. If I ask him to chunk up a word, it takes a while, but he can usually get it as long as the vowels don't prove to be an exception. I can quiz him on his spelling words, spelling bee style and he will get them all right 99% of the time. If I give him dictation sentences on the same words, he misses about 60%.

 

Does treatment of ADD Inattentive involve like ritalin? We've tried caffeine and it seems to give him a boost. He always did better with his BrainSkills when he had a little Mt. Dew before the lesson.

[Claire]

Has he ever had a complete speech and language evaluation by a speech pathologist? I think that's what I'd want to get first. It sounds as if he may have a problem with retrieval and expressive language. A complete eval would also test his reading level, his phonological awareness skills, decoding skills, and comprehension. It sounds to me as if he may have a language disorder. Medical insurance should cover this eval if you do the following: find a good speech pathologist and then call their clinic to describe your son. Ask if medical insurance will cover the eval. Speech clinics work with insurance companies every day, and usually they can tell you *exactly* how a referral needs to be worded or coded in order to be covered.

 

I'm also wondering about short-term memory. A neuro-psych eval that results in a medical diagnosis is usually covered by medical insurance. However, the monetary risk is much bigger since this type of eval runs about $2,000 and you would have to guarantee payment if medical insurance denies.

 

It does sound like dyslexia to me. I would re-do Rewards with him (did you use Intermediate or Secondary?) since his word attack skills are still weak. The drills in the Rewards lessons should help with the vowel problem. I would also pull out any BrainSkills exercises associated with visual sequencing and visual short-term memory and use those daily for 10 to 20 minutes. Since his word ID score was so low, I'd also use an Orton-Gillingham drill to work on pattern recognition, starting with high-frequency words. (I can post separately on how to do that if you are interested.)

 

If he is willing to work on the computer independently, I would also probably consider getting Ace Reader software, being very careful to have him start at the lowest level of text and work his way up. (Accuracy *must* be in place before you start working on speed or you create a bigger problem.) My thought here is that some visual processing issues may still be interfering with his reading. Using Ace Reader judiciously (not more than 10 minutes a day) might help his word recognition speed.

[Rod Everson]

He's 12yo now.

I contacted a Dev Opt from the COVD website. They said he had 20/20 vision; with "low hyperopia, accomodative instability, convergence insufficiency, ocular-motor dysfunction, possible visual perceptual delays by history". They recommended vision therapy, which we could not swing at the time.

 

I contacted Dr. Stephey. He was a breath of fresh air. He provided us with vision therapy software and told me how to run a battery of tests.

 

We completed the vision therapy and moved during the next year. I lost touch with Dr. Stephey. I really couldn't tell much difference in ds's ability to read.

 

What would you do?

 

Hi Pam,

 

Have you ever had him re-evaluated by a developmental optometrist after you used the computer program as a substitute for vision therapy? If not, that would be what I would recommend as the next move (or at least one of them.)

 

If his convergence skill is still not in place, he's going to have trouble reading. At some point it might resolve on it's own, but as long as he's struggling, you should rule out vision skills as a continuing source of the problem. Frankly, I doubt that the computer program did the trick, since you noticed no change in his reading behavior during that time, although it's certainly possible that he remains confused about sounds in words and how they are represented.

 

On my website are three auditory tests and a code knowledge test similar to, but harder and more detailed than, the tests in Reading Reflex. They're free; you just have to download a PDF to use them. Here's a link to the first test, Testing Blending Skill. The other three tests, segmenting, auditory processing and code knowledge are on the pages after the blending test.

 

If he does well on all of the auditory tests, but poorly on the code knowledge test, then he has a poor grasp of phonics. That can be due to his never having been effectively taught phonics, or because he had a big enough problem with visual skills when phonics instruction was carried out that he just didn't "get it." This often happens when kids have vision issues.

 

If he does poorly on the blending and segmenting tests, you have your work cut out for you building those skills. Start with Reading Reflex and go from there. Blending skill can be a bit challenging to instill, but segmenting is easy for a child to learn using the approach in Reading Reflex.

 

My belief is that he probably still has a vision problem, but you can teach a child phonics even though he has a vision problem. He just won't like to read all that long or often until the vision problem resolves. So, if you can't work on the vision, give him the tests and if it's indicated, start again with the phonics instruction. Given what you said about his vowel confusion, I'd guess that he scores about 50-60 percent on the code knowledge test and has very little knowledge of overlap options. Even with a vision problem, you should be able to get his code knowledge up to 90% along with a good grasp of overlap options (e.g., the various sounds the letter "a" can represent-cat/table/want or that the digraph "ow" represent-cow/grow) using the right curriculum.

 

If you do administer the four tests, I'd be happy to discuss the results with you. Either email me or post results in here.

 

Oh, by the way, on my website is a link to the ReadNow group. Dr. Stephey is still a regular contributor there if you'd like to re-establish contact with him. And I should add that I have no problem with the other replies you got. I just think that you might still be dealing with a vision issue and no one mentioned that possibility yet.

 

All the best,

 

Rod Everson

OnTrack Reading

[GothicGyrl]

There are two programs on the net that I can recommend for reading, at least. I do NOT know anything about your son's conditions, I'm only zeroing in on the reading part. They are phonics based programs and both are very well done and very, very good.

 

One is called Starfall. http://www.starfall.com/, --Again very basic, phonics based reading, which it seems he needs. Learning is done by "playing" and it is a graduated program--he moves on when he has successfully mastered the previous.

 

The other one is called Headsprout : http://www.headsprout.com/ Same concept as Starfall, only price is different.

 

BOTH are excellent programs. I've worked with both (as a reviewer) and both had my then 4yr DD READING whole books by the time she was done with them.

 

Again, I do not know or even pretend to understand your poor son's issues. I am only recommending these two programs because I *know* them, and know how good they are.

[Mandamom]

Thank you, Mandamom! This is very helpful. How did you get your dx? How has having a dx helped you?

 

for one because it certainly explains a lot. I have suspected for several years before he was diagnosed that he had it but it wasn't until he met with a counselor for a while that he mentioned it as a possibility also. For dh, it explains to him that a lot of what he thought were just quirks were caused by his brain. Dh hasn't tried medications yet but it might be worth looking into in our case as soon as our health insurance issues get straightened out.

 

As a spouse of someone with ADHD I certainly see the weaknesses of not giving children with ADHD the full coping skills (organization, time management, etc.)that he needs as an adult to succeed. He is a good man and works hard but sometimes I get very frustrated with some of the behavior. For example, he woke up today letting me know he'd do the dishes that he left last night and ended up doing about 3/4 before getting involved in another project -- that is very typical of him. Having him do a project around the house means I generally have to go behind him to clean up after him as he usually has parts all over the place that he doesn't keep track of very well.

 

 

One of the criteria of adult diagnosis is indications that he had problems with it as a child. I suspect that if he had more help when he were younger he would have done much better in school (he ended up getting his GED even though he qualifies or qualified for MENSA).

 

So, even if you don't go after a diagnosis, I think it is important to make sure that the skills are in place for success as an adult. In reading a message board for adults with ADHD for adults some of them lead very difficult lives with an inability to manage money (dh has this issue), problems keeping a job either to negligence or frustration from within and poor choices with addiction and alcohol.

 

Of my children, I have concerns of 2 of them for possible ADHD Inattentive and even though I'm not going for a diagnosis currently I'm working closely on building routines and skills for them so that they can have success in furthering themselves in school and as an adult. They get frustrated with me now but I'm hopeful that it will pay off for them later.

 

Sorry this got so long in an unrelated thread. I do need to make it clear that I do love my dh and he does have many strengths as loving husband, great dad and a hard worker but he definitely does have ADHD, no doubt about it :)

[Laurie4b]

Laurie4b,

 

As far as how we made it through REWARDS, he performs well but forgets easily. I have to remind him almost daily how to divide. If I ask him to chunk up a word, it takes a while, but he can usually get it as long as the vowels don't prove to be an exception.

 

How do I tell if the neuropsych is good? I took my 3yo to a neuropsych at a developmental center in our general vicinity only to find out that my ST and OT have a poor opinion of this center. :001_huh:

 

How do I find a tutor? I own Reading Reflex. I have trouble knowing where to start with ds. He can read, it just takes him a while. By the time he gets a sentence out, he's put forth so much effort and taken so much time, he has no idea what he's read and neither do I.

 

We live in the country, on a mountain. Finding help is hard enough. My dh already works three jobs trying to make ends meet. I do so appreciate your help!

 

Pam, it sounds like you have worked SO HARD for this child. It is such a sorrow when you can't seem to make it right. Hang in there.

 

Ask your OT and ST for a recommendation for the neuropysch. They likely work with neuropsychs on a regular basis. I would also ask them about reading tutors. You can get a tutor to kick-start you, and then use the tutor for consultation. It's kinda like this board, only she could see your son IRL and see things directly for herself. When you ran into a snag, you could ask someone in person about it.

 

Are you willing to get some testing done by the school? State laws vary, but most require schools to do special needs testing for kids in private and homeschools. If you could just get the WISC-IV done for free, that will cut back a lot of the testing costs. If you don't want to go the school route, a regular psychologist can also do the WISC. That is really an important chunk of info.

 

I would want to know whether or not his scores were pretty similar on the subtests or whether there are areas of signficant discrepancies.

 

It sounds like he has trouble both with active working memory and getting things into long-term memory. If the overteaching method works for spelling, start using it for other areas, such as division and reading. For reading, for instance, use those same high frequency words as you're using for spelling. Review them in the 5 days in a row, 3 weeks in a row, etc. way that you do the spelling words. You can also work on groups of words with certain vowel combinations this way. Your goal is to get the high frequency words to be automatic when he sees them, then each pattern of vowels, etc. to be automatic.

 

Does he have regular short-vowel words down pat?

 

Fluency readings should help with the reading as well. Repeated oral readings are what you are after. First, select a short passage on your son's reading level. Then, read it aloud to him to model oral reading. Next, have him read it aloud to you. Correct any errors as he goes. Next, have him read it while you time with a stop watch. (Don't correct on the timed readings, but mark his errors on a photocopy). Do one more time trying to beat his previous time. The next day, he could read it silently, then out loud. You could do another reading if necessary, then do two timed ones. You should choose short readings (that would take only a minute or two) so this doesn't get time-consuming.

 

Pam, you sound like such a good Mom. Your son is blessed to have you. In all this work to remediate his weaknesses, don't forget to look for, reinforce, and cultivate his strengths. Adults generally find our niches in the areas of our strengths, so make sure you focus on those, too.

[Ottakee]

Ritalin is one treatment. There are many other stimulants that work for ADD. Then there are some non stimulant medications, supplements like http://www.omegabrite.com (we use these too), dietary changes, etc.

 

It sounds like attention issues are really causing him struggles. It might be worth having him evaluated. For some kids, the medication can make a HUGE difference in their learning ability.

[Susan]

Check out Writing Road to Reading. This is a very good method that is very logical and thorough. It can be used as a complete program - spelling, reading and writing. The students learn the specific sounds of at least 70 phonograms that are used in the English language in a very systematic and non-stressful way and methodically advance to reading and writing. This program is ideal for students with difficulties, but I think it's also great for any student b/c it makes sense out of spelling, reading and writing. Check out www.spalding.org. There is a support forum there for homeschoolers and teachers who use this method. You can probably get this book on Amazon. I cannot say enough about how much I LOVE this method!! Don't despair. You have not failed your son. You are doing everything in your power and by seeking help and new strategies you are helping him!!

[Pam H]

I do need to make it clear that I do love my dh and he does have many strengths as loving husband, great dad and a hard worker but he definitely does have ADHD, no doubt about it :)

 

 

Janice,

 

I want to apologize for asking so personal a question here about your husband! I misread your post as a dx for your dS. I suspect my dh of being ADHD, he also has many strengths and I understand where you are coming from! :001_smile:

[Pam H]

I just want to say that you have all given me much to research and I'm not ignoring you or anything, just busy loving my guys. :D

[Mandamom]

>>>Janice,

 

I want to apologize for asking so personal a question here about your husband! I misread your post as a dx for your dS. I suspect my dh of being ADHD, he also has many strengths and I understand where you are coming from! >>>>

 

That's okay. I wondered if that happened :) but I don't mind talking about it as I see what happened with him not getting the help he needed as a child and hoping that others can learn from what we're learning from.

 

Good luck in getting your issues figured out.