S/O on planning for high school courses

[jeri]

I've been reading the high school-to-college threads with great interest. Thanks for all the input into what courses your kids are taking and what types of colleges they are applying to. My dd is in 7th this year. She and I are contemplating her high school years and her goals for college.

 

She is a great student and, as of now, is hoping to work in math and/or science. Here are the *important* courses she is taking right now:

 

Alg 1 (and most of AOPS' Counting adn Prob)

German 1 throught OK State

Latin 2 with a tutor

CW Maxim

 

Next year she is hoping to move into high school courses. I am figuring that she has already taken four with the Alg, German, and Latin. Would you agree with that?

 

Regarding CW Chreia--does anyone know if that's a high school course? Or do I have to wait for Herodotus to count that?

 

What about Logic--would Traditional Logic be a high school course?

 

What *does* constitute a high school course, anyhow? Isn't it some formula like 3 hours a week of classwork and 3 hours of outside work? That sounds like a lot, but perhaps that's true.

 

And now I'm learning that anything they learn as a non-high schooler (ie middle school) doesn't count as a high school credit! Is this true?

 

Thank you!

 

Jeri

 

 

 

[Leanna Tomlinson]

Although many homeschoolers count junior-high classes for high school credit, I avoid doing so. The classes you listed, with the exception of German, are not necessarily high school level.

 

If your dd is planning to work in math/science, she will be in college with many students who had Algebra I in junior high. She needs math every year to stay competitive. Have her take Geometry or Alg II in 8th grade, then take Geometry or Alg II in 9th, move to Pre-Calc 10th, and follow with Calculus. If she needs to slow down, that will still be OK. My dd, a college sophomore, has several engineering friends who were able to take College Calculus from a community college in high school. This made a huge difference in the workload for these incoming freshmen engineers. That is my plan for my ds(15) who is planning on engineering as a major. His transcript will read:

9-Geometry

10 - Pre-Calculus

11- Calculus

12- College Calculus.(hopefully)

The colleges should know that he has had Alg I & II to get through Pre-Calc, but I will also state that in the class descriptions.

 

All three of my teens have taken Traditional Logic as a high school course.

 

Your dd will need 4 years of English (in some combination of grammar, writing, and literature). I would not count writing done in the 7th grade as high school level. Even if she is doing the same work that some 9th graders are doing, that still doesn't mean that she is writing at a 9th grade level for HER. You can create an English credit by combining writing and literature, so if you take a two years to get through a CW program while combining that with literature study/analysis, that's fine, but the point is that her writing continues to develop as her thought processes mature.

 

You may be able to count the German if you really need it, I don't know anything about the course.

 

When counting hours for credits, my transcript book recommends 160-180 hours per credit awarded. I really don't track hours, but look at material covered.

 

These are just my opinions, but are consistent with college requirements I've encountered while going through the application process for my 2 oldest dd's.

 

HTH,

Leanna

[jeri]

I understand what you're saying about math and college. She is right on board to take Alg 2 (8th), Geom (9th), Trig/precalc (10th) then Calc (11th). Right now we are living in Germany but at that point we will probably be back in the US and then she will go further in math with CC courses.

 

I also understand what you say about her mind maturing along the way, and thus her thinking/'writing.

 

Her desire is to "graduate" from high school early. As a homeschool mom, I'm not sure what that looks like. If I don't count anything until high school (9th) then it's almost impossible for her to "graduate" early. But maybe it's just more important that she has the "work" that is required by her colleges of choice, and not have a clear breakdown of four years of school from age 14-18. Do I make any sense here?

 

As for the German, according to the website at OK State, it is high school German so I guess I can count it as such, right?

 

For the Latin, she recently started working with a tutor and given the level she is working at, her tutor said she is equivalent to two years of high school Latin. But you're saying that you would not count this as 2 credits, right. Can you explain (again) why?

 

Good tip on the Logic course! She will do Basic Trad Logic next year in 8th. But are you saying that this is not high level unless it is done in high school?

 

Really, I appreciate you input! I am just trying to reconcile her age, her "grade", and her courses.

 

Jeri

[creekland]

At the colleges we've been to, talked with, and considered, absolutely none would count any courses taken prior to 9th grade as credit regardless of level. This isn't to say we've talked with all colleges though. High scores on the SAT/ACT and/or AP tests will also be taken into consideration and could buy you/her a waiver. It doesn't mean they'll count the credit. It only means they won't care.

 

My suggestion if she wants to graduate early is to consider her an 8th grader now, not 7th. There's no reason she can't advance a grade and still do 4 years in high school... Schools won't even look to see there was a missed year prior to high school.

[Leanna Tomlinson]

 

My suggestion if she wants to graduate early is to consider her an 8th grader now, not 7th. There's no reason she can't advance a grade and still do 4 years in high school... Schools won't even look to see there was a missed year prior to high school.

 

Considering her goals, I think this is a great suggestion.

 

When considering credits for both Latin and German, remember that homeschool transcripts can look "padded" if there are too many credits. So, if she has three credits of foreign languages from 7th grade added to her transcript along with 4 years of regular high school work, this will either look like the course work is not rigorous, or you "borrowed" from junior high. Now, if you have AP and SAT II tests to back up her work, it will give her transcript more credibility. I know several homeschool students attending 4 different colleges that had to take AP or SAT II tests to get into honors programs at their university. There are so many different standards, that these tests give colleges a standard "measuring stick". Whether that measuring stick is valid is another question.

 

IMHO, I would take Creekland's suggestion and consider this fall her 9th grade year. I would not consider the Latin worth 2 credits. The level is the opinion of one instructor. She only did one year of work. Go ahead and call next year's course Latin II on her 9th grade transcript. This implies the earlier coursework in junior high. I would have no problem counting Traditional Logic as a high school course.

 

The German may be OK from OK.:) Be able to back this up with class descriptions, booklist, professor's name, paperwork etc.

[Mama Lynx]

Jeri,

 

For the Latin, do some looking around on the internet. Look at the Latin level II NLE exam - could she pass that, right now? You can find syllabi for college Latin courses - is she at the equivalent level of one year of college Latin study? You can gauge her level by looking at information like that. Or, ask her tutor to show you why he/she thinks your daughter is at that level - tell him that for school records, you need some kind of corroboration or proof.

 

I doubt you'd have a problem with the OSU language credit.

[Nissi]

I plan to give credit for Latin I and II ds. took with Scholars Online using Wheelocks Latin and for Greek I and II using Greek : An Intensive Course. Ds. studied these courses between 7-9th grades. Both these texts are College level textbooks. He plans to do Spanish from 10 - 12th grades. For Math and Science I plan to include only the courses taken during highschool.

[Corraleno]

My suggestion if she wants to graduate early is to consider her an 8th grader now, not 7th. There's no reason she can't advance a grade and still do 4 years in high school... Schools won't even look to see there was a missed year prior to high school.

 

:iagree:

Consider next year her first year of HS, and start keeping the appropriate records. Alg II, German II, Latin II (or whatever you decide to call it), and Traditional Logic would be HS-level courses. You probably won't even need to give formal "credit" for the work she did this year, even if it was HS-level ~ I think it's better to have a "normal" amount of credits on a transcript, than to have a lot of extra credits tossed in there that were done prior to HS. Most colleges will just ignore those anyway.

 

My son will probably have completed Alg I, Geometry, and 3 or 4 HS-level science courses before 9th grade, but I don't intend to "count" those for HS. He will still have 5 math and probably 6-7 science credits on his HS transcript (including many CC courses), so there's no need to pile on the earlier courses as well.

 

What will your DD's English, History, and Science courses look like next year? Will those be clearly HS level? (CW Chreia is listed as "8th grade and up," so you should be fine for writing.) If she wants to graduate a year early, and you are going to count next year as 9th grade rather than 8th, then the rest of her courses should be HS-level too.

 

Jackie

[Brindee]

 

My suggestion if she wants to graduate early is to consider her an 8th grader now, not 7th. There's no reason she can't advance a grade and still do 4 years in high school... Schools won't even look to see there was a missed year prior to high school.

:iagree: That's what we're doing with dd. We switched her from 7th this year ro going into 9th next year. I'm not counting things prior to next year as highschool credit. She'll have enough credit to have "normal" hours on her transcripts without those. I'm just starting at what she's doing next year and moving forward.

[TravelingChris]

My youngest is 7th right now and moving into 9th in June, most likely. SHe will have two classes at least with part of the work done earlier but part done after JUne. THe two that will count for high school are ALgebra I and Earth Science. Now, I keep a flowing transcript and change it as the need arises. That means, for her, the Algebra I will likely get dropped at many colleges. HOwever, I have seen state colleges and a few private that insist on having that Alg I credit even if the kid has credits in Calculus. So she will get a grade and then later it may drop off some of the transcripts.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jeri,

 

Lots of people count high school level classes done in jr high as high school level. I would do one of two things.

 

1) assume college admissions people are smart enough to realize that a student who does Latin IV in 9th grade has already done Latin I-III. Same goes with the math and any science you do a level II of.

 

2) add to your notes section about classes taken prior to high school (9th grade). Keep it extra brief as they'll ask for more information if they need it.

 

But regardless, you're still going to need the same NUMBER of high school credits done during high school. So if a school wants 4+ math credits, you start with the math she took in 9th grade, not at Algebra I.

 

As for graduating early, if you're going to do that, just consider her a 9th grader next year. My daughter graduated early after doing dual enrollment. We cut both ways. Her 8th grade year was 9th grade and then we did 3 years instead of 4 (but she still had on the high side of average credit wise and that was even without counting jr high credits).

Edited April 4, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[FloridaLisa]

Jeri,

 

I must be in the minority here. I would count the high school courses done in middle school. But that's because we have looked primarily at state schools and they count high school credits done in junior high. Not only is it counted, but other competitive students are showing early high school credits. In fact, our state flagship university has the stats on students applying with 31 or more academic credits. Academic! To have so many academic credits, these students must be counting high school courses taken in middle school (or have uber full academic schedules or summer courses).

 

HTH,

Lisa

[jeri]

Sorry I'm late on getting back with all of you but was busy over the weekend. Lots of food for thought here. Still trying to decide what to do. DH is leaning on "letting her by an 8th grader" even though she's the one who wants to proceed to high school. She's very bright but she is still just a kid! Also, our family life can get a bit complicated with having a lot of kids, and I don't want to put undo pressure on her to succeed, especially if I cannot support her 100%! I am leaning on continuing with our plan of Alg 2, Traditional Logic, Latin with a tutor (but trying to pin her down more on "how" to assess her grade level), German 2 through OK state, and Chreia. I am calling the high school tomorrow to see if they would allow her to take Biology which I understand "advanced" 9th graders take. Then World History a la WTM with extra writing/reading for Ancients in high school. I think I will keep track of all her classes and start assigning credits to them, then I can see what the year looks like and go from there. I would feel good if she can do solid work in 4-5 of these classes, meaning that they would appear to be high school credits down stream.

 

I never realized this would be so complicated! I guess it's hard when you have a kid who is not really at grade level in all areas.

 

Any more comments are welcome! I have read all of your comments adn shared them with DH. (BTW, he finds all our little acronyms funny and proposes another one to follow HTH--TFTH which is Thanks for the Help. I told him it just doesn't have that ring to it and probably wouldn't fly, LOL)

'

Jeri

[creekland]

Jeri,

 

I must be in the minority here. I would count the high school courses done in middle school. But that's because we have looked primarily at state schools and they count high school credits done in junior high. Not only is it counted, but other competitive students are showing early high school credits. In fact, our state flagship university has the stats on students applying with 31 or more academic credits. Academic! To have so many academic credits, these students must be counting high school courses taken in middle school (or have uber full academic schedules or summer courses).

 

HTH,

Lisa

 

Our public high school requires 8 credit courses per year from each student (4 per semester w/block scheduling). If a student doesn't fail any, they automatically get 32 credits. They don't allow study halls in our school district. They do not count credit done for any courses in middle school even though some students do Alg 1 and Geom there.

[creekland]

Still trying to decide what to do. DH is leaning on "letting her by an 8th grader" even though she's the one who wants to proceed to high school. She's very bright but she is still just a kid!

Jeri

 

All three of my kids are very bright and could easily move on to college early. One college wanted my oldest to come a year early and ditch his senior year of high school. We didn't. Instead we opted to let ours enjoy their growing up and stick with traditional ages. I don't regret it at all. My middle son is likely to take several cc classes next year if we can afford it (he'll be a junior age-wise), but we're still planning on 4 years of undergrad when he's ready. His undergrad school is likely to be far more academic than the cc would ever be, so I kind of see it as stepping stones.

 

In our opinion, they have their whole lives to be adults. We only have a couple more years as a family...

 

But not everyone shares that view. To each our own.

[8filltheheart]

I count classes in middle school as high school if they are actually doing high school equivalent work. That said, I don't give credit for English or history as a high school course in middle school, regardless. ;)

 

I am also one that won't let my kids graduate early!

 

So, I am going to make a transcript similar to the way Kathy in Richmond did for her dd. Instead of listing every grade for every course, I am going to create columns as <9th / 9th / 10th / 11th / 12th and then groupings going down in subject categories with headers: Math algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, etc.

 

I am unwilling to not incorporate those courses into his transcript b/c he has worked hard and deserves the recognition for their completion. His 1st 9th grade math credit will be pre-cal. He will probably end up with 9+ math courses on his transcript. I can't judge now, but he pushes himself in math b/c he loves it. He wants to take several AoPs courses that are non-traditional in addition to the traditional math sequence.

 

FWIW, in TN, the law limits it to 3 credits they can carry up in terms of hrs for graduation, but other than that limitation, I have never heard of not "recognizing" the credits.

[Brindee]

In our opinion, they have their whole lives to be adults. We only have a couple more years as a family...

 

But not everyone shares that view. To each our own.

My dh and I feel that way also, we're a very close family. If I allow my dd to go to 9th grade courses because she is begging me to be able to do so, does not mean I'm pushing her to be an adult and don't want us to be a family! It doesn't mean she'll leave home any sooner either, as our plans go. It just means she WANTS this challenge, and I'm not going to stop her enthusiasm for studying and learning and working hard! :001_smile:

[Kathy in Richmond]

I count classes in middle school as high school if they are actually doing high school equivalent work. That said, I don't give credit for English or history as a high school course in middle school, regardless. ;)

 

I am also one that won't let my kids graduate early!

 

So, I am going to make a transcript similar to the way Kathy in Richmond did for her dd. Instead of listing every grade for every course, I am going to create columns as <9th / 9th / 10th / 11th / 12th and then groupings going down in subject categories with headers: Math algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, etc.

 

I am unwilling to not incorporate those courses into his transcript b/c he has worked hard and deserves the recognition for their completion. His 1st 9th grade math credit will be pre-cal. He will probably end up with 9+ math courses on his transcript. I can't judge now, but he pushes himself in math b/c he loves it. He wants to take several AoPs courses that are non-traditional in addition to the traditional math sequence.

 

 

:iagree:everything she said! If anyone would like to see a copy of my daughter's transcript, feel free to send me a PM with your email address. I have a copy with identifying info and grades removed that I'd be glad to share:).

 

~Kathy

[Pamela H in Texas]

My answer regarding three topics that came up:

 

1) Our school districts here do 8 courses per year, no study halls. Most students have 28 to 32 credits when they graduate (28-30 if they take off the end of the day senior year).

 

2) I would not have sent a child OFF to school early. My daughter lives at home. I dare say she's home more now than she was as a homeschooled high school student.

 

3) We used a subject based transcript as dd's classes were not divided evenly between the grade levels. It could also be easier for people incorporating things like Algebra I, Latin I and II, etc.

Edited April 6, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Gratia271]

At the colleges we've been to, talked with, and considered, absolutely none would count any courses taken prior to 9th grade as credit regardless of level.

 

So, when you have a student working 4 grade levels up in work with testing to support that, it means nothing? Am I missing something here for those of us with gifted kids? Wow, that's discouraging.

[8filltheheart]

So, when you have a student working 4 grade levels up in work with testing to support that, it means nothing? Am I missing something here for those of us with gifted kids? Wow, that's discouraging.

 

I don't agree that it means nothing. I would accept Kathy's generous offer below and ask her for a copy of her dd's transcript. She did an extraordinary job of illustrating her dd's achievements (which, btw, are amazing as is her dd in general!). All on a single page!

 

Kathy's set up definitely has validation since her dd has been accepted at the most prestigious schools (Stanford, MIT, etc)

 

Where I agree that classes prior to high school are questionable in value on a transcript are courses that many universities don't consider high school worthy credit for certain majors. For example, the university where my ds applied did not want to see physical science as a high school credit for those applying for engineering majors. Int that state, physical science tended to be viewed as a middle school course.

[Gratia271]

I certainly understand not giving HS credit for classes which are not HS level. I was referencing HS course work which she is doing. My husband and I have no intention of our dc leaving home early, but I think our oldest dd will be doing predominantly CC work by the time she is "9th grade" age-wise. I suppose I am just bewildered about how to document her work. If they are looking for Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Bio... etc. on a HS transcript, it won't be there.

 

Thank you for the clarification, and thank you for drawing my attention to Kathy's generous offer!

[creekland]

I certainly understand not giving HS credit for classes which are not HS level. I was referencing HS course work which she is doing. My husband and I have no intention of our dc leaving home early, but I think our oldest dd will be doing predominantly CC work by the time she is "9th grade" age-wise. I suppose I am just bewildered about how to document her work. If they are looking for Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Bio... etc. on a HS transcript, it won't be there.

 

 

 

It's not for nothing and schools don't need to see the traditional courses there. If students are doing more advanced courses, the understanding is the traditional courses were done. They just want to see enough credits done during the high school years to show the student didn't rest on their laurels after having done the "basics" in middle school.

 

We put the courses my son had done in middle school on his transcript as a note, but were told since he was doing higher level courses, they knew he had done the lower level ones. MANY applicants do the lower level courses (Alg 1, etc) in middle school. It's more the norm than not at upper level colleges. A student who is doing Calc in high school has done the rest earlier. They just don't want to see that student stopping with whatever their 9th grade math course is - regardless of level.

[FloridaLisa]

Our public high school requires 8 credit courses per year from each student (4 per semester w/block scheduling). If a student doesn't fail any, they automatically get 32 credits. They don't allow study halls in our school district. They do not count credit done for any courses in middle school even though some students do Alg 1 and Geom there.

 

Some of the schools in Florida are also on block scheduling so I'm sure that's how kids are racking up credits. I think what caught my attention is that these are academic credits, so P.E. and Lifeskills is out (two recently required courses), and possibly some other electives such as art, yearbook, and others.

 

Lisa

[creekland]

Some of the schools in Florida are also on block scheduling so I'm sure that's how kids are racking up credits. I think what caught my attention is that these are academic credits, so P.E. and Lifeskills is out (two recently required courses), and possibly some other electives such as art, yearbook, and others.

 

Lisa

 

A lifeskills course, huh? I wonder what that is. We don't have it yet - aside for courses for the more developmentally delayed or impaired.

 

PE is only a total of 2 credits here. Many kids don't take Art or Music at the high school level. It's not required here. Certain courses are more than 2 credits. We have a Wilderness Lit course that is worth both a science and an English credit. It's sort of camping with English. Kids learn a lot about hiking, keeping up natural places, various equipment for outdoor sports like rock climbing, ecosystems and related English passages and books. It's kind of a neat class IMO - definitely not traditional, but nonetheless, two academic credits for one class (they also do a bit of outside of school activity including a year end trip to National Parks, etc).

 

Anyway, all that to say it doesn't really surprise me that so many students have so many credits - and it doesn't have to be from counting middle school courses (though some might).