MCT versus Rod and Staff w/other writing programs

[mims]

My dd (9 years) has done Sonlight LA all the way through. I have added in an old Rod and Staff orally. She will be about 5th grade next year, language art is fine but not an extremely strong point for her. She knows basic parts of speach most of the time, can write paragraphs from Sonlight with a fair bit of enthusiasm but a lot of issues. Next year I want to up the grammar and writing. She does best with specific instructions and step-by-step methods.

 

What does MCT offer that Rod and Staff combined with Wordsmith Apprentice or Check the Deck doesn't offer? I keep hearing MCT is deeper and people love the style but I would love some concrete examples of what they do better. I am not sure which level I would put her in since she has some grammar but not real strong and really the same with her writing. And of course I would love to hear any negatives of MCT because than I always get a better picture.

 

Thanks.

[muffinmom]

:lurk5: Concrete examples would be helpful...anyone?

[Melabella]

:lurk5:

[Melabella]

Okay...where are all the MCT people?

[Snickerdoodle]

Okay...where are all the MCT people?

 

I am not familiar at all with R&S, Wordsmith or Check the Deck so I can't really make a comparison. Sorry about that.

[Matryoshka]

I am not familiar at all with R&S, Wordsmith or Check the Deck so I can't really make a comparison. Sorry about that.

 

:iagree: This is my problem too. Haven't ever seen those programs, and I've never even heard of Check the Deck. From what I've heard of descriptions of it, even from people who love it more than chocolate, I can tell R&S would give me hives. They are very, very different programs. I think most people who love one would find the other hard to swallow.

 

I think part of the difficulty in getting an answer to this post is that the people that are drawn to R&S aren't interested in MCT, and very few MCT users ever wanted to use R&S and were using other things prior to finding MCT (I used Easy Grammar).

 

I actually didn't think I'd like MCT from looking at the samples of the elementary program, but I loved the look of the secondary program. Then I ended up backing up to where my kids were "at", and found that I love it.

[mims]

My problem is everybody keeps saying they love the program but very few specifics about why. I have no picture of what my child would walk away with after a year of this program. Do they learn more grammar? Is your child's writing way better after a year? What else do they learn that you are thrilled they know and don't think they would get in another program?

[muffinmom]

My problem is everybody keeps saying they love the program but very few specifics about why. I have no picture of what my child would walk away with after a year of this program. Do they learn more grammar? Is your child's writing way better after a year? What else do they learn that you are thrilled they know and don't think they would get in another program?

 

:lurk5:

[happymom]

Rod and Staff is a solid grammar program. I used it for a few years. I've also used First Language Lessons, Growing with Grammer, Hakes Grammar, Easy Grammer, Analitical Grammar, and Shurley Grammer. I've been homeschooling a long time and I have four children so I haven't really jumped around as much as it looks.

 

Anyway, MCT is a solid grammar program too. The biggest difference is that MCT is the only one that teaches a love of grammar and language. I can't say that my kids loved any of the grammar programs above but this one they love. They want to do it every day. It's fun. I love to teach it. Who doesn't want their kids to grow up loving language and writing, to feel comfortable playing around with words and literary techniques. Besides all of this my ds is learning a ton and retaining it.

 

I am adding a step-by-step writing program to MCT. It's the one thing I think that's missing. I've chosen to use Lost Tools of Writing.

[Lostinabook]

My disclaimer is that we've only been using MCT since the beginning of Feb. However, my dd, who hates pretty much everything & LOATHES being challenged, is liking the program. She still gives me a hard time about the writing assignments, but she's started spontaneously doing 4 level sentences analyses on her own sentences. It's just weird (in a really wonderful way :)). She also notices language all the time. I'm astonished. Truly.

[Kuovonne]

My problem is everybody keeps saying they love the program but very few specifics about why.

 

I've never used any of the other programs you mentioned, plus, I only just started using MCT (Island Level) with a young student. However, here are some reasons why I like MCT.

 

MCT is fun to do. We enjoy the whimsical stories that illustrate the concepts. We can do most of the work snuggled on the sofa, which both of us enjoy.

 

MCT introduces all eight parts of speech quickly, so we can start talking about them right away. I find it similar to how SWR teaches all 70 phonograms right away, but mastery comes later. Most of the grammar programs that I looked at for my daughter's level took a really long time to get to all eight parts of speech.

 

MCT introduces the concept of a correct, complete sentence early on, so I can start talking about it to my daughter right away. Again, mastery of writing good sentences (vs. run-ons, fragments, subject-verb agreement, misplaced modifiers, incorrect punctuation, etc.) takes time, but at least we have the vocabulary and concepts to discuss why a sentence needs editing.

 

The four level analysis of sentences makes sense to me. I never learned diagramming myself, and have no interest in learning or teaching diagramming.

 

It has it's own yahoo group, in which the author participates. Getting an answer to a question directly from the author himself is very satisifying.

 

There are no descrete lesson plans, so I don't feel pressured to "get to the end of the lesson." That makes it easier to stop when my daughter has had enough for the day, wherever that may be.

[radiobrain]

All grammar programs will eventually teach all the same things...

 

whatever you choose will get the job done.

 

However, MCT fosters a love of language that I just don't see coming from other programs. The presentation, lack of condescension (despite the whimsical storylines of ducks and fish ), depth and joy that permeates the texts is what sets it apart. MCT seems to channel the inner grammar geek that you didn't know existed.

 

So, I think asking for a concrete example is hard to answer... the difference is the desire to see language OUTSIDE of the LA lesson. I think that THAT is is the key and the biggest difference between MCT & others.

 

I find R & S charming, and I am sure that it is a wonderful program... but it just doesn't cut it in this house.

 

I think that there have been many "concrete examples" on the multiple threads of success and understanding with this program, but your idea of concrete and mine might be different. I would say that all the people saying things like " it's my favorite HS $$ spent" and "my kids ask to do MCT" "it's my favorite thing to teach" are pretty concrete examples of it being a good program.

 

MCT is not for everyone. I think that anyone can use it, but if you are questioning it's worth from the get go... maybe it is not the best fit. If the multiple threads didn't get you excited, then... :confused:

 

I also happen to agree with EVERY POINT in the post above mine.

Edited March 22, 2010 by radiobrain

[rafiki]

.

[choirfarm]

She knows basic parts of speach most of the time, can write paragraphs from Sonlight with a fair bit of enthusiasm but a lot of issues. Next year I want to up the grammar and writing. She does best with specific instructions and step-by-step methods.

 

What does MCT offer that Rod and Staff combined with Wordsmith Apprentice or Check the Deck doesn't offer? I keep hearing MCT is deeper and people love the style but I would love some concrete examples of what they do better. I am not sure which level I would put her in since she has some grammar but not real strong and really the same with her writing. And of course I would love to hear any negatives of MCT because than I always get a better picture.

 

Thanks.

 

First of all, I have done some Sonlight grammar, but I don't have any idea about those other programs. I just bought the Island level a few weeks ago and I am so incredibly impressed. I decided to start there with my 7th grader because he has never gotten grammar, really. I have a 2nd grader, so I figured that I would use it. I AM SO GLAD I STARTED THIS PROGRAM FROM THE BEGINNING. It is so different and so wonderful and so advanced in some ways. My 7th grade boy LOVES it. It immerses you in the beauty of language and seeing it with fresh eyes. After each part of speech there is a poem. Example:

The Story of Princess And

There was a bland princess, named ANd,

who loved everyword in the land

If she had her way, she'd spend every day

playing, with a word in each hand.

.........She saw Green and Cloud,

And called, "Will you play with me now?"

"Can't!" they panted and ran

 

 

That is just a small sample of the poem, but you read it and discuss why the poor princess couldn't play with green and cloud (conjunctions don't join two different parts of speech)

 

 

In another exercise he has lists of words under the different parts of speech and they are encouraged to come up with silly sentences using the list as a springboard for a funny story. My 7th grader is flying through it, but I'm taking it much slower with my 2nd grader and some of it is going over her head. We may do it next year instead.

 

At the same time, I am doing Music of the Hemispheres as well. It gently encourages them to notice poetic devices. My 2nd grader has noticed them in other schoolwork now. I've been amazed. One day we made lists of words that rhymed. Then together we wrote a funny poem that had end rhymes, internal rhymes and eye rhymes.

 

I haven't started Sentence Island yet, but the story is about Mudd a fish who can't stop thinking about a sentence. Once again, very well written and clever and older children can see so much that is in there that to me would be way over a 3rd graders head. There are great activities in the back. For example, in chapter 2 which talks about the differences between action verbs and linking verbs, it hs the student write a short dialoge between two characters: Axe and Link. Axe can only use action verbs and Link can only use linking verbs. Do you see how this little activity would cement this in a child's brain?!!! There are 7 other activities listed. It is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

 

Building language looks equally great, but I haven't really done anything with it.

 

I will start Practice Island as soon as we finish Grammar Island. I plan to do 2 sentences WITH him and then have him do 2 sentences on his own each day.

 

My plan is to start Town level with him next fall when he is in 8th and then Voyage in the spring of 8th.

 

The idea with this program seems to be immersion and just enjoying language. I have the idea that R & S are just dry worksheets (but don't know.) You have to examine the language, talk about the language, experiment with the language like you do with a science topic. What happens if you put the verb here? the phrase there??

 

I hope that helps.

 

Christine

[flmochamom]

What does MCT offer that Rod and Staff combined with Wordsmith Apprentice or Check the Deck doesn't offer?

 

I keep hearing MCT is deeper and people love the style but I would love some concrete examples of what they do better.

 

I am not sure which level I would put her in since she has some grammar but not real strong and really the same with her writing. And of course I would love to hear any negatives of MCT because than I always get a better picture.

 

Thanks.

 

1. I have not used any of the other LA programs you mentioned, therefore could not make a comparison.

 

2. Why I love the MCT program is much easier to answer. Like other posters have stated, I also believe the MCT LA program is one of the few that promote a love of the language, that discusses the beauty of words, that really integrates language into a person's whole being. As far as concrete examples, just yesterday my 2 older children were making jokes, while on a field trip, about some of the stem words learned a few weeks ago. I am using new vocabulary words myself. My 13 yo asks to do Grammar. But more than anything, this program has enhanced our family's relationship in creating shared experiences. And MCT LA also provides through LA instruction to boot!

 

3. I would start your dd at the beginning, you can always race through.

 

4. Negatives, we started at too high of a level (AAW) for my 13 yo and had to drop back to firm up his foundation in writing. We are supplementing MCT with IEW for composition.

 

Good luck in your decision making.

Edited March 22, 2010 by flmochamom

[Miss Marple]

My problem is everybody keeps saying they love the program but very few specifics about why

 

I think it may be impossible to really articulate why one *loves* something. I've used just about every writing program available (at least in the past 10 years) and found that MCT LA just speaks to me. I also totally concur with his writing theory (as articulated in the back of his writing texts).

 

I would say it is similar to why one has preferences of any sort. My preference may not be more "right" than another, but it might work better for me because I *like* it and therefore will put more energy into using it. The kind of music, art, and literature one likes is very personal. I think writing/LA curriculum choice is similar. Like Radiobrain said, all grammar programs eventually teach the same things - it's just the process of getting there that may be different. I guess it depends on what type of journey you are looking for.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Okay...where are all the MCT people?

 

I don't know anything about the other programs, sorry. I hope someone else can shed some light on the subject.

[kokotg]

I haven't used Rod and Staff, so I can't compare to that. My son used FLL for 3 1/2 years before we switched to MCT, and I can say that he's retained more from the few months we've been using MCT than he did from those 3 1/2 years of FLL. I'm not saying that would be the case for every child, but my son became very good at memorizing the definitions in FLL without really processing them and at figuring out how to correctly fill in the blanks without truly understanding the material. Those kind of shortcuts aren't available in MCT; he's forced to really think about what he's doing. But the creative and thoughtful presentation means he's also enjoying it.

 

For writing, he's doing both WWE and Sentence Island, and my plan is that he'll continue to do both as they teach different skills. I can say that I very much approve of the incremental approach both programs take. Having taught scores college freshman who couldn't write a decent sentence, much less an entire essay, I'm a huge fan of starting at the sentence level and working up from there.

[vmsurbat]

Next year I want to up the grammar and writing. She does best with specific instructions and step-by-step methods.

 

What does MCT offer that Rod and Staff combined with Wordsmith Apprentice or Check the Deck doesn't offer? I keep hearing MCT is deeper and people love the style but I would love some concrete examples of what they do better. I am not sure which level I would put her in since she has some grammar but not real strong and really the same with her writing. And of course I would love to hear any negatives of MCT because than I always get a better picture.

 

Thanks.

 

I've homeschooled for (gasp!) nearly 20 years--oldest has graduated from college, youngest just beginning high school.

 

I've used R&S 3-7th grade books, and have used the first secondary level (Magic Lens, etc). of MCT--so not the elementary level of MCT but his "style" and approach remain the same through out all his books.

 

My take--both are excellent programs. To determine which is better suited to *your* needs-and I'm including teacher, student, and family in the "your"- here are some specific nuances of each program stated in a R&S/MCT format:

 

1. Order of new material introduced:

 

R&S: The material to be learned is divided into specific chapters (usually around 12 chapters). Each chapter targets a particular area of grammar and chapter topics are introduced in a similar order in each book (ie. first "The Sentence" then "Nouns" then "Verbs" etc. Within each chapter, there are several specific writing lessons interspersed amongst the grammar-oriented lessons.

 

MCT: At the Magic Lens level, there are four beginning chapters which introduce ALL the grammar material to be learned. (Covered in the first 10 weeks of school or so)) The remainder of the book (approx. 20 weeks) contain "loops" which are exercises related to the grammar just covered. Every "loop" contains exercises related to parts of speech, parts of sentence, phrases, and clauses. Some exercises are writing based (eg. write a paragraph), other exercises are of the "mark the part of speech" type, still others have you "discuss this literary passage" in terms of its grammar and what effect that makes on the writing (and consequently, its effect on the reader).

 

2. Structure of lessons:

 

R&S: R&S is well-structured with easily identifiable daily lessons. The teaching instruction is followed by oral and written exercises, to be used as desired. (We did most things orally except for diagramming (on a white board) and the exercises which required full sentences/paragraphs in writing.)

 

MCT: There are no daily lessons. You, the teacher, need to figure out how much to cover each day. The early chapters (with the teaching material) are intensive--will you go for mastery or exposure? You decide. Once you hit the "Loop" section, there are clearly defined exercises and you can more easily pace yourself. The tricky part of pacing, IMO, is the beginning 10 weeks.

 

3. Feel and tone:

 

R&S: These books have a no-nonsense look, tone, and feel to them. They have plenty of exercises to aid in mastery. The sentences/exercises subject matter include primarily family situations, Christian piety, and a rural lifestyle with a bit of history thrown in on occasion.

 

MCT: These books do not look like a text book at all. The author purposely uses a myriad of fonts and spacing to emphasize various aspects of grammar (language). The books stress a playful wonder at the beauty of language. The sentences/exercises subject matter include some history, some classical literature, and many contrived sentences to highlight vocabulary (which match the vocabulary introduced in MCT's vocabulary series).

 

4. Foundational principle:

 

R&S: Language is created by God and to be used for His glory.

 

MCT: Grammar is a way of thinking about language.

 

My final analysis:

 

MCT requires more thinking and more discussion about grammar, about language, about thinking. This is a lot of fun IF YOU HAVE THE TIME FOR IT.

 

Frankly, when my children were younger, I didn't have that kind of time and I didn't know enough (yet) about grammar to feel my way through a program like MCT. R&S is a great program when you need something to "open and go" and you don't want to do a great deal of planning/interaction. I spent 15 minutes per day with my kids doing R&S (primarily oral) and we ALL have a firm grammar foundation. R&S served me well.

 

MCT will do much to expand your horizons of what language IS and all the interplay between grammar, punctuation, meaning, poetics, etc. I highly recommend reading through MCT's stuff on the RFWP site and various videos on youtube. You'll sense his joy and wonder at human language. If you think MCT fits where you want to go and how you want to get there, go for it. I think the younger the child, the more fun you can have with it.

 

Lastly, if you think MCT is not a good fit (or at least not right now), let me encourage you that you can still introduce the "language is fun and wonderful" element without choosing a program based on that premise. Take one day a week (or afternoon or evening) and play Madlibs, or Apples to Apples, or Balderdash, or any other word game. We did this while using R&S and every one of my children has an outstanding vocabulary and great mastery of complex sentences. (Of the 3 who've taken the SAT, two had an 800 on the critical reading portion and the third was in the high 700's). If you want your kids to experience the joy of language, you can easily introduce this yourself.

 

Best wishes on your choice,

 

HTH,

[Capt_Uhura]

The way I look at it is there are many different roads to the same place. If you're driving up the coast in California, would you rather be driving a regular car or a convertible? I've driven it in both and it's a whole different experience in the convertible. :lol: that's how I feel w/ MCT. WE've done GWG and it got the job done and was relatively painless. He did seem to forget. However, his retention w/ MCT has been wonderful. the boys run to the couch and fight over who is on which side of me when I bring out Sentence Island. Then then fight over who is going to read which part. They read the dialogue of the various characters.

 

And yes, some kids are hand me the workbook and let me do it myself kids. They would loathe MCT. My boys are VERy much into discussion, the shared experience so MCT fits them very well. Grammar and poetics come up outside of grammar time which I like. All of pick up on poetic devices in books we read. Even today, we were watching LIFE and picked up on personification. MCT has really opened our eyes to the beauty in language and using sounds to convey feeling and emotion.

[Jen500]

We have used Wordsmith Apprentice (last year), and are using the Town level now. Just very different approaches. WA is written to the student, and has small, short assignments with a newspaper theme. The assignments are VERY specific. My boys enjoyed WA, but they really didn't learn any new writing skills, although it did inspire them to write a family newsletter.

 

MCT really needs to be read together, and enjoyed and discussed. We are only halfway through the writing book lessons, but I see improvements in their writing already, and it has carried through to writing in other subjects. I feel more able to evaluate some of their writing and give specific comments after using MCT for a bit than I did when using WA. With WA I was just checking to see if they had completed the assignment. And it seemed to take the first 3/4 of the book before they were writing more than a few sentences.

 

I'm not really trying to criticize WA...my boys did like it (which is always a plus!) but it just wasn't the best program for us. We did finish the entire book though.

[mims]

Thankyou!!! These are the answers I was trying to grasp. You all have been a great source of info.

 

Kuovonne, your description and reasoning really helped.

Choirfarm, I will definately refer back to your post.

vmsurbat, Again, another one I want to refer back to.

 

I am adding a step-by-step writing program to MCT. It's the one thing I think that's missing. I've chosen to use Lost Tools of Writing.

 

Thank you for your whole answer. What does Lost Tools have that you don't see in MCT? You say step-by-step . . . does this mean you don't see this in MCT?

 

 

I I've used just about every writing program available (at least in the past 10 years) and found that MCT LA just speaks to me. I also totally concur with his writing theory (as articulated in the back of his writing texts).

 

 

I didn't find this on his sight. Can you summarize it at all or tell me where to find it?

 

 

These posts really helped me and I hope can help some others. Thanks for the time!

[muffinmom]

I've homeschooled for (gasp!) nearly 20 years--oldest has graduated from college, youngest just beginning high school.

 

I've used R&S 3-7th grade books, and have used the first secondary level (Magic Lens, etc). of MCT--so not the elementary level of MCT but his "style" and approach remain the same through out all his books.

 

My take--both are excellent programs. To determine which is better suited to *your* needs-and I'm including teacher, student, and family in the "your"- here are some specific nuances of each program stated in a R&S/MCT format:

 

1. Order of new material introduced:

 

R&S: The material to be learned is divided into specific chapters (usually around 12 chapters). Each chapter targets a particular area of grammar and chapter topics are introduced in a similar order in each book (ie. first "The Sentence" then "Nouns" then "Verbs" etc. Within each chapter, there are several specific writing lessons interspersed amongst the grammar-oriented lessons.

 

MCT: At the Magic Lens level, there are four beginning chapters which introduce ALL the grammar material to be learned. (Covered in the first 10 weeks of school or so)) The remainder of the book (approx. 20 weeks) contain "loops" which are exercises related to the grammar just covered. Every "loop" contains exercises related to parts of speech, parts of sentence, phrases, and clauses. Some exercises are writing based (eg. write a paragraph), other exercises are of the "mark the part of speech" type, still others have you "discuss this literary passage" in terms of its grammar and what effect that makes on the writing (and consequently, its effect on the reader).

 

2. Structure of lessons:

 

R&S: R&S is well-structured with easily identifiable daily lessons. The teaching instruction is followed by oral and written exercises, to be used as desired. (We did most things orally except for diagramming (on a white board) and the exercises which required full sentences/paragraphs in writing.)

 

MCT: There are no daily lessons. You, the teacher, need to figure out how much to cover each day. The early chapters (with the teaching material) are intensive--will you go for mastery or exposure? You decide. Once you hit the "Loop" section, there are clearly defined exercises and you can more easily pace yourself. The tricky part of pacing, IMO, is the beginning 10 weeks.

 

3. Feel and tone:

 

R&S: These books have a no-nonsense look, tone, and feel to them. They have plenty of exercises to aid in mastery. The sentences/exercises subject matter include primarily family situations, Christian piety, and a rural lifestyle with a bit of history thrown in on occasion.

 

MCT: These books do not look like a text book at all. The author purposely uses a myriad of fonts and spacing to emphasize various aspects of grammar (language). The books stress a playful wonder at the beauty of language. The sentences/exercises subject matter include some history, some classical literature, and many contrived sentences to highlight vocabulary (which match the vocabulary introduced in MCT's vocabulary series).

 

4. Foundational principle:

 

R&S: Language is created by God and to be used for His glory.

 

MCT: Grammar is a way of thinking about language.

 

My final analysis:

 

MCT requires more thinking and more discussion about grammar, about language, about thinking. This is a lot of fun IF YOU HAVE THE TIME FOR IT.

 

Frankly, when my children were younger, I didn't have that kind of time and I didn't know enough (yet) about grammar to feel my way through a program like MCT. R&S is a great program when you need something to "open and go" and you don't want to do a great deal of planning/interaction. I spent 15 minutes per day with my kids doing R&S (primarily oral) and we ALL have a firm grammar foundation. R&S served me well.

 

MCT will do much to expand your horizons of what language IS and all the interplay between grammar, punctuation, meaning, poetics, etc. I highly recommend reading through MCT's stuff on the RFWP site and various videos on youtube. You'll sense his joy and wonder at human language. If you think MCT fits where you want to go and how you want to get there, go for it. I think the younger the child, the more fun you can have with it.

 

Lastly, if you think MCT is not a good fit (or at least not right now), let me encourage you that you can still introduce the "language is fun and wonderful" element without choosing a program based on that premise. Take one day a week (or afternoon or evening) and play Madlibs, or Apples to Apples, or Balderdash, or any other word game. We did this while using R&S and every one of my children has an outstanding vocabulary and great mastery of complex sentences. (Of the 3 who've taken the SAT, two had an 800 on the critical reading portion and the third was in the high 700's). If you want your kids to experience the joy of language, you can easily introduce this yourself.

 

Best wishes on your choice,

 

HTH,

 

very helpful analysis--thanks!

[Lightly Salted]

I've homeschooled for (gasp!) nearly 20 years--oldest has graduated from college, youngest just beginning high school.

 

I've used R&S 3-7th grade books, and have used the first secondary level (Magic Lens, etc). of MCT--so not the elementary level of MCT but his "style" and approach remain the same through out all his books.

 

My take--both are excellent programs. To determine which is better suited to *your* needs-and I'm including teacher, student, and family in the "your"- here are some specific nuances of each program stated in a R&S/MCT format:

 

1. Order of new material introduced:

 

R&S: The material to be learned is divided into specific chapters (usually around 12 chapters). Each chapter targets a particular area of grammar and chapter topics are introduced in a similar order in each book (ie. first "The Sentence" then "Nouns" then "Verbs" etc. Within each chapter, there are several specific writing lessons interspersed amongst the grammar-oriented lessons.

 

MCT: At the Magic Lens level, there are four beginning chapters which introduce ALL the grammar material to be learned. (Covered in the first 10 weeks of school or so)) The remainder of the book (approx. 20 weeks) contain "loops" which are exercises related to the grammar just covered. Every "loop" contains exercises related to parts of speech, parts of sentence, phrases, and clauses. Some exercises are writing based (eg. write a paragraph), other exercises are of the "mark the part of speech" type, still others have you "discuss this literary passage" in terms of its grammar and what effect that makes on the writing (and consequently, its effect on the reader).

 

2. Structure of lessons:

 

R&S: R&S is well-structured with easily identifiable daily lessons. The teaching instruction is followed by oral and written exercises, to be used as desired. (We did most things orally except for diagramming (on a white board) and the exercises which required full sentences/paragraphs in writing.)

 

MCT: There are no daily lessons. You, the teacher, need to figure out how much to cover each day. The early chapters (with the teaching material) are intensive--will you go for mastery or exposure? You decide. Once you hit the "Loop" section, there are clearly defined exercises and you can more easily pace yourself. The tricky part of pacing, IMO, is the beginning 10 weeks.

 

3. Feel and tone:

 

R&S: These books have a no-nonsense look, tone, and feel to them. They have plenty of exercises to aid in mastery. The sentences/exercises subject matter include primarily family situations, Christian piety, and a rural lifestyle with a bit of history thrown in on occasion.

 

MCT: These books do not look like a text book at all. The author purposely uses a myriad of fonts and spacing to emphasize various aspects of grammar (language). The books stress a playful wonder at the beauty of language. The sentences/exercises subject matter include some history, some classical literature, and many contrived sentences to highlight vocabulary (which match the vocabulary introduced in MCT's vocabulary series).

 

4. Foundational principle:

 

R&S: Language is created by God and to be used for His glory.

 

MCT: Grammar is a way of thinking about language.

 

My final analysis:

 

MCT requires more thinking and more discussion about grammar, about language, about thinking. This is a lot of fun IF YOU HAVE THE TIME FOR IT.

 

Frankly, when my children were younger, I didn't have that kind of time and I didn't know enough (yet) about grammar to feel my way through a program like MCT. R&S is a great program when you need something to "open and go" and you don't want to do a great deal of planning/interaction. I spent 15 minutes per day with my kids doing R&S (primarily oral) and we ALL have a firm grammar foundation. R&S served me well.

 

MCT will do much to expand your horizons of what language IS and all the interplay between grammar, punctuation, meaning, poetics, etc. I highly recommend reading through MCT's stuff on the RFWP site and various videos on youtube. You'll sense his joy and wonder at human language. If you think MCT fits where you want to go and how you want to get there, go for it. I think the younger the child, the more fun you can have with it.

 

Lastly, if you think MCT is not a good fit (or at least not right now), let me encourage you that you can still introduce the "language is fun and wonderful" element without choosing a program based on that premise. Take one day a week (or afternoon or evening) and play Madlibs, or Apples to Apples, or Balderdash, or any other word game. We did this while using R&S and every one of my children has an outstanding vocabulary and great mastery of complex sentences. (Of the 3 who've taken the SAT, two had an 800 on the critical reading portion and the third was in the high 700's). If you want your kids to experience the joy of language, you can easily introduce this yourself.

 

Best wishes on your choice,

 

HTH,

 

Thank you for this - very helpful!

[Merry]

this answer for a long time now.

[HappyGrace]

Great answer! I too can attest to MCT taking quite a bit of time. It is good and profitable time, but we are doing Grammar Town, CE1, and the poem book with dd10-not even the practice books or PTown yet-and it takes a ton of time! (We do flashcards, etc., to reinforce.)

 

Great program-just be sure you have the time to put into it to make the most of it!

[happymom]

Thank you for your whole answer. What does Lost Tools have that you don't see in MCT? You say step-by-step . . . does this mean you don't see this in MCT?

First of all I have only used the first two levels of MCT-Island and Town. I am basing my response that step-by-step writing is not taught in these two levels and from research I've done on the Voyage level. I'm not sure about the upper levels so please correct me if I am wrong. In the lower levels writing assignments are given but without step-by-step instructions.

 

Second, I have not taught Lost Tools of Writing yet. I have read through it once and have a general idea of what it will cover. I will explain how I believe it works very simply. If anyone has anything to add or to correct me on please do.

 

The 1st book covers the persuasive essay only and does so because it says that all writing can be helped from knowing this model. It covers how to come up with something to say, how to form a thesis from a question, how to prove the thesis with three proofs, how to use definitions and comparisons, how to outline, how to organize the outline, proper form and arrangement of the essay, adding your own voice within a structure, adding style-includes strong verbs, similes,metaphors, alliteration,etc., what not to do like avoiding to many prepositions. All of this is taught using didactic mode for those familiar with that.

Again, I am only scratching the surface here. Karenciavo has written some great posts on this curriculum for anyone that wants to do more research including pros and cons.

 

I will have a 6th grader next year and will only cover the first half of LToW along with MCT's Voyage Essay. In 7th I will cover the 2nd half of LToW along with MCT's Advanced Academic Writing. Anyway, that is the plan right now.

 

I too can attest to MCT taking quite a bit of time. It is good and profitable time, but we are doing Grammar Town, CE1, and the poem book with dd10-not even the practice books or PTown yet-and it takes a ton of time!

I have to disagree with the above quote. Compared to grammar programs that go on endlessly with page after page of grammar lessons and practice I think that MCT's grammar lessons are much quicker. 5-10 weeks of short grammar lessons and then a 5-10 minute practice a few days a week after that. When you look at other Programs for writing, poetry, and vocabulary,my experience is that MCT's lessons are shorter in these areas as well.

[forevergrace]

We have used "First Language Lessons," and are in the process of finishing off level 4. I decided to follow through with R&S, because it is highly suggested in the WTM. I was so happy with FLL, that I felt this was the way to go for us. Mind you, we are not of Christian Faith, but tend to follow many beliefs. R&S being is heavily dominated in the Christian religion, the program follows the same principles of "First Language Lessons." It is the nuts and bolts, practiced rigorously. Is it for everyone? I can't answer that, since we just received our fifth-grade materials. I can tell you this; I don't care what the religion it is based on, as long as the material is well thought-out, and we are provided w/practice exercises. Which, R&S seems to come equipped with. I know my dd will follow our path in the respect of religion, and I'm not afraid of her being overly subjected to anything, her beliefs have long been in place. Religion is the only thing I can see people having a problem with. One final note, dd excelled at "First Language Lessons," this was the main reason we followed through w/R&S.

Forevergrace

[choirfarm]

I wanted to make one comment about making sure you have the time to do MCT. To me, it doesn't take that much time. I have done some of the FLL with my 2nd grader and the time is equivilent. Also, if you can hand R & S to your child and they complete it with very little input and you like it, then stay with it. I've done Sonlight that way (just going over answers) Analytical Grammar, etc and my oldest LOVES that. I bet he would have enjoyed R & S (never seen it). He teaches himself and I go over fine points. For my middle child, that just hasn't worked. He needed me to sit with him and some of the materials went too fast, too dry, etc. MCT is fun!!! We spend 15 minutes or so on Grammar Island every day (almost done..we've only been doing it for a few weeks) after that I will go to Sentence Island). We also do Music of the Hemispheres 2 or 3 days a week for 15 minutes each time. BUT, just like I hated Sonlight IG's and did my own thing I don't have a problem with just skimming the teacher section and then starting to read and stopping whenever we seem done. I don't box check.

 

But it is amazing to my that my 7th grade boy is FINALLY getting it. Now maybe he would have gotten Analytical Grammar if I had sat in front of a white board, gone over it with him, done examples on the board and sat with him while he did it. But that would have taken me at least an hour to do each time and he would have been sitting with his arms crossed daring me to teach him something. Right now I say it is time for Grammar Island and he runs and we cuddle on the couch and he groans and smiles and we find all the silly things. The other thing nice about it is that you can combine children. I combined the Grammar one with my 2nd grader at first and I still do Music of the Hemispheres with both of them!! If they were closer in age, it would be better. Just more food for thought.

[Capt_Uhura]

For us, it doesn't take much time. THe review and cementing occurs in the Practice books. We do a sentence daily so you're covering parts of speech, parts of a sentence, phrases and clauses every. single. day. I have my 2 boys do the sentence independently, then we come together to discuss. For example, our last two sentences dealt with use of a prepositional phrase vs a direct object. We discussed where the emphasis is in those two sentences and why you'd choose one over the other.

 

You then review again everything when you start the Writing book (Sentence Island or Paragraph Town). It feels like it takes a chuck of time but I remind myself that we did grammar, poetry, and vocabulary work in the same amount of time that my son would have dawdled over a GWG lesson.

 

hth,

Capt_Uhura

[HappyGrace]

To me, it doesn't take that much time.

 

Grammar Town, PTown, etc., are what we are using, not Island. And I do find that we take lots of time to do them because we run and ck things in the dictionary, stop to discuss a lot, etc. It is time well spent though! And yes, you are covering everything in LA in an integrated way in that time.

 

The Town series goes much more in depth than Island-awesome stuff! But it does take time to chew on it and digest it and enjoy it!

[Guest BVargas75]

Thank you so much for such a thorough post. I am looking into buying MCT for my 3rd and 4th graders and your thread has me ready to commit. MCT seems like it will be so interesting and soul inspiring to teach/learn. Can't wait!

First of all, I have done some Sonlight grammar, but I don't have any idea about those other programs. I just bought the Island level a few weeks ago and I am so incredibly impressed. I decided to start there with my 7th grader because he has never gotten grammar, really. I have a 2nd grader, so I figured that I would use it. I AM SO GLAD I STARTED THIS PROGRAM FROM THE BEGINNING. It is so different and so wonderful and so advanced in some ways. My 7th grade boy LOVES it. It immerses you in the beauty of language and seeing it with fresh eyes. After each part of speech there is a poem. Example:
The Story of Princess And
There was a bland princess, named ANd,
who loved everyword in the land
If she had her way, she'd spend every day
playing, with a word in each hand.
.........She saw Green and Cloud,
And called, "Will you play with me now?"
"Can't!" they panted and ran


That is just a small sample of the poem, but you read it and discuss why the poor princess couldn't play with green and cloud (conjunctions don't join two different parts of speech)


In another exercise he has lists of words under the different parts of speech and they are encouraged to come up with silly sentences using the list as a springboard for a funny story. My 7th grader is flying through it, but I'm taking it much slower with my 2nd grader and some of it is going over her head. We may do it next year instead.

At the same time, I am doing Music of the Hemispheres as well. It gently encourages them to notice poetic devices. My 2nd grader has noticed them in other schoolwork now. I've been amazed. One day we made lists of words that rhymed. Then together we wrote a funny poem that had end rhymes, internal rhymes and eye rhymes.

I haven't started Sentence Island yet, but the story is about Mudd a fish who can't stop thinking about a sentence. Once again, very well written and clever and older children can see so much that is in there that to me would be way over a 3rd graders head. There are great activities in the back. For example, in chapter 2 which talks about the differences between action verbs and linking verbs, it hs the student write a short dialoge between two characters: Axe and Link. Axe can only use action verbs and Link can only use linking verbs. Do you see how this little activity would cement this in a child's brain?!!! There are 7 other activities listed. It is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Building language looks equally great, but I haven't really done anything with it.

I will start Practice Island as soon as we finish Grammar Island. I plan to do 2 sentences WITH him and then have him do 2 sentences on his own each day.

My plan is to start Town level with him next fall when he is in 8th and then Voyage in the spring of 8th.

The idea with this program seems to be immersion and just enjoying language. I have the idea that R & S are just dry worksheets (but don't know.) You have to examine the language, talk about the language, experiment with the language like you do with a science topic. What happens if you put the verb here? the phrase there??

I hope that helps.

Christine

 

[sunnyday]

I am afraid I disagree with 8. I learned essay writing from an award winning 12th grade teacher and AP grader. Under her tutelage I earned a 5 on the AP English exam. My junior year of liberal arts college I took ENG 100 for funsies and got the impression I blew the prof away. My paper on Madame Bovary is still in my drawer. It has quotes almost a page in length, followed by indented new paragraphs. The new paragraphs continue the argument; the paper is a sound one with adequate support from the text and adequate analysis from the essay writer. I do not fault MCT on these stylistic choices, and I feel a sound college quality paper can result from them.

 

SWB states that many educators are moving away from simple 5-paragraph or similar "in threes" styles of written exposition, asking for variety of structure and of thought process. From what little I have seen of MCT's writing instruction above the elementary and from everything I have seen that shows his passion for language and detail oriented writing, I expect I would be very comfortable using him through the logic/dialectic stage before moving to a more formal treatment of the breadth of rhetorical devices.

[llifeon18wheels]

This thread has cemented my desire to use MCT's products. Well be starting in March and I look forward to it. Thankyou to whoever brought it to the thread for recent newbies like me.

[awisha.]

This thread is from 2010!!!

 

 

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaains.