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How candid are you with your dc's teachers, and how is that working out for you?


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Since day one in public school, I've made a huge effort to spend time in my dc's classrooms. I spend nearly two full days each week at the school, my intention being that I know what they're learning. There's hardly a day that goes by that I don't hear something in the classroom or elsewhere in the school that doesn't make me glad I'm there.

 

But after two and a half years of letting teachers send me to the copy room far too often, I've decided that my new approach will be much more candid. Instead of merely stating that I prefer working in the classroom, I'm going in next year with, "I'm here to listen. If I can be helpful at the same time, great!"

 

Anyone else take this much more honest and open approach? How's that working out for you as far as the treatment and/or attitude from your teachers? I'm curious because I'm also employed at the school part-time, so these people are also my coworkers.

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I would not admit to being there to spy. Especially since you also work there. But you could express an interest in doing something in the classroom. Or if you want to sit in the classroom without volunteering you could say you have a book to finish or some organizing or some other project to do.

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I agree with Elisa, they would rather feel that you are there to help and assist them than watching them. Maybe you can say that you would rather work directly in the classroom and assist them with classroom duties. If other parents volunteer they can be sent to do copies, etc.

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... they will think that you have a right to listen in their classroom.

 

The fact is, as parents, I believe that we have every right to be with our children all the time, but we can't necessarily enforce that right in the classroom with all those other children and the teacher also present. So you might lose the right to be in the classroom at all if you take that stance.

 

A more effective approach might be to identify some classroom helping skills that you would like to offer to the teacher--reading aloud to a small group, listening to one child read aloud, cutting out crafts for later, setting up science demonstrations and experiments, providing an art activity that correlates with their social studies lesson, organizing a game or two at recess, singing with the kids, that kind of thing. That way you can help the teacher IN THE CLASSROOM, where you want to be, more so than just hanging out and being available for copying and such. Really, it's a value proposition that you're putting forward if you word it like that, and the teacher is more likely to let you stay if you are making life easier for her than if you're neutral and possibly critical as just an observer.

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Well, that's what I have been doing over the last two years, and my teachers have continually let me down. My dc are bright and academic challenges in the classroom have to be manufactured for them because they don't come from the curricula. I conference with their teachers, most of whom say they appreciate my involvement in my dc's education (and I'm sure they do because my kids aren't on their "qualified" list) and give the impression that I'm respected as their advocate. They always promise they can and will make sure the kids are challenged on a regular basis, but as the year progresses, this promise isn't always fullfilled. That's why I'm in the classroom. Not to run copies, but to be my children's advocate, which it's obvious they need.

 

I'm not too concerned with not being welcome in the classroom. I'm not disruptive, certainly not nasty or disrespectful to the teachers or anyone else. But I'm beginning to care less and less, as I watch this system fail even my very bright children, about tiptoeing around what's customary or typical. We're very fortunate this year to have two teachers who I feel truely do respect my role as my kids' first educator, but even they are not fullfilling their promises to challenge them. I understand they're charged with the very difficult task of ensuring that the full range of abilities in their classrooms meet standard, but does that mean the ones who can meet that standard and then some are doomed to sit idle six hours a day?

 

I've had mixed responses when I suggest unconventional ways to avoid this. For instance, my ds7 (in 1st grade last year) went to a 2nd grade classroom for math class at my suggestion. That worked great for both teachers, our principal, ds, and me. He's currently not in this arrangement this year (although I'm now considering it) because that 2nd grade teacher promised me she would keep his little math mind moving if she had him this year. She said she'd "love to see how far she could take him" (and I got teary eyed!). Maybe that's turned out to be too difficult, but I wouldn't know that if I hadn't made room in the back of the classroom to correct those spelling tests rather than heading to the volunteer workroom with the other moms.

 

My teachers know why I prefer to be in the classroom and it's usually not a problem for them. I'm very involved in my kids' education and there's nothing wrong with my wanting to know what my kids are being taught. In fact, I consider it my responsibility. I do state openly why I'm there, but so far I've never refused to do work that keeps me in the workroom, put work off during class time to take home later, or anything to that effect. I'm just wondering what kind of treatment others have received if they've been very upfront about being in the classroom. I'm getting the impression that many would expect hostile treatment. I have to say, if a teacher or administrator ever forcibly kept me out of the classroom, my kid would be coming with me!!

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Teachers do the best they have with what they have. Even the best of the best teachers can never be a private tutor. It's the same way with swim lessons. I expect one thing in a group swim lesson, and I expect another in a private lesson.

 

I loved teaching when I was a teacher, but this is part of the reason I would prefer not to go back if I don't need to.

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I'm getting the impression that many would expect hostile treatment.

 

We don't have ours in PS (too young, anyway), but from what I've heard my sister and others say, yes, I would expect hostile treatment if I openly stated that I was in the classroom to "observe." Now that I think about it, I don't like feeling this way, as it sounds so negative and oppositional. Truly, I respect the work that PS teachers do, but from what I've heard, I would not assume that I have "rights" as a parent that would (in reality) line up with my own expectations. IOW, you might want to check your "rights" first, then make your "declarations" later, based on your research. HTH. Good luck!

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... they will think that you have a right to listen in their classroom.

 

The fact is, as parents, I believe that we have every right to be with our children all the time, but we can't necessarily enforce that right in the classroom with all those other children and the teacher also present. So you might lose the right to be in the classroom at all if you take that stance.

 

A more effective approach might be to identify some classroom helping skills that you would like to offer to the teacher--reading aloud to a small group, listening to one child read aloud, cutting out crafts for later, setting up science demonstrations and experiments, providing an art activity that correlates with their social studies lesson, organizing a game or two at recess, singing with the kids, that kind of thing. That way you can help the teacher IN THE CLASSROOM, where you want to be, more so than just hanging out and being available for copying and such. Really, it's a value proposition that you're putting forward if you word it like that, and the teacher is more likely to let you stay if you are making life easier for her than if you're neutral and possibly critical as just an observer.

 

 

Wow, I'm really shocked at the responses (not just yours, Carol, but I hadn't read it before my last post). I suppose I was in that place when we were new to educating, but as a 7-year homeschooler/afterschooler I haven't been in that "mercy of the public schools" state for quite a while. Maybe it comes from Washington's homeschool law (which I hear is quite liberal compared to other states) that has taught me that I am responsible for my kids' education by virtue of the fact that I have options (i.e. homeschool, public school, private school, alternative ed, online ed, part-time enrollment, etc.), combined with my experience in the public schools after having homeschooled my kids that's taught me that I CAN teach them as well or better than the public school system.

 

Since when do parent teachers throw the towel in on accountability with regard to education? And when will anyone hold the public schools accountable? I'm not ashamed to do it. If more parents would grow the kahunas to stand inside of our classrooms, maybe public education wouldn't be in such a sad state. Just because my kids go to a taxpayer funded school doesn't mean I'm freed of responsibility. I just need to gather different information now - I need to know that school, those teachers, and what my kids are being taught - in order to assess their education.

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I'm getting the impression that many would expect hostile treatment. I have to say, if a teacher or administrator ever forcibly kept me out of the classroom, my kid would be coming with me!!

 

And it's always up to the teacher, as best as I can tell, whether parents are allowed, and whether a specific parent is allowed.

 

I have personal knowledge of a public school teacher who decided not to accept any parent help in the 4th grade classroom. A friend of mine who has always done that kind of volunteer work told him that at the beginning of the school year that she was available 1 day per week, and he said that he was not interested. I have personal knowledge of another public school teacher who told a specific parent that she was not welcome in her 5th grade DS's classroom, after that parent complained that her son was not being taught properly (I forget whether he was remedial or accelerated, but he was out of the mainstream, and the parent was always pushing for something out of the ordinary for him.) Now, this teacher was not being mean or vindictive--she has 27 other children to teach, at least two non-English home languages to deal with, and significant state standards to cover. Dealing with this one mom took her over the top with stress. She tried and tried and finally kicked her out.

 

So I know that teachers have a great deal of power in their classrooms, and parents are more likely to be able to participate if they appear to be helping rather than watching. It's not a question of whether they are hostile or not. It's just that they have power that we don't alway recognize until we come up against it.

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Since when do parent teachers throw the towel in on accountability with regard to education? And when will anyone hold the public schools accountable? I'm not ashamed to do it. If more parents would grow the kahunas to stand inside of our classrooms, maybe public education wouldn't be in such a sad state. Just because my kids go to a taxpayer funded school doesn't mean I'm freed of responsibility. I just need to gather different information now - I need to know that school, those teachers, and what my kids are being taught - in order to assess their education.

 

I'll bet you teach your kids better than anyone else does. I know that I do. And I think that schools should be accountable.

 

But, here's the difference.

 

I think that you should think about your objective and how best to accomplish it, and start from there. And to make sure that you can do that, you have to realize that teachers can assert specific powers IN THEIR OWN CLASSROOMS. So it's just prudent and strategic to take that into consideration when you're figuring out what to do. You can fight them on that, but by the time you win your child will be in another school. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight, but it does mean that if it is crucial for your child that you be right there, there are better ways to accomplish that. If you want to establish the principle, and you know that your child will be just fine while you fight, that's another matter.

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The problem with going in to observe (or even volunteering and surreptitiously observing) is that the federal FERPA laws pretty much say that no person without a need to know (parents, teachers in direct supervision of the child, administrators, and that's about it) is to be given access to a child's educational records unless the parent gives permission. Some schools have interpreted this down to the point of not publishing honor rolls, not posting graded papers, even 100% ones, and not allowing parent volunteers in the classroom if any work is going on that is being assessed-hearing a child answer an in-class question could be considered a violation should a parent want to push the issue. And courts have been grey as to whether volunteer paperwork is sufficient to protect the school or not, especially if special ed law falls into the mix on top of FERPA.

 

It can make it very hard for school personnel to walk the line between giving a parent their rights in their own child's education without violating the privacy laws.

 

 

Private schools aren't bound by this, but even then some private schools have similar policies, especially if they've got someone on the school board who does school law cases, and is therefore aware of everything that courts have deemed actionable when it happens in public schools.

 

I'm very glad I'm not actively teaching in public schools anymore.

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Truly, I respect the work that PS teachers do, but from what I've heard, I would not assume that I have "rights" as a parent that would (in reality) line up with my own expectations. IOW, you might want to check your "rights" first, then make your "declarations" later, based on your research. HTH. Good luck!

 

 

OMG. The acceptance of the attitude that the government has rights to my child that supercede mine is shocking to me. I'm not a child abuser. I'm an involved parent, more of which the school district claims will be the answer to our 40% dropout rate.

 

Maybe I should have posted on the General board, rather than exclusively to afterschoolers. I'm looking for those parents who've had to fight the fight for their kids. (I thought I'd find them here, but maybe they're all full-time homeschoolers now! :lol:)

Edited by BabyBre
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I volunteer a couple of days a week and like you, I think my kids' education is more important than being liked by the teachers or the administration.

 

The thing is, if you tell the teachers that you are there to observe them, that puts them on the defensive. I think the teachers will not be as cooperative as they have been if you make them think they are being watched and evaluated. It is much better to have them on your side when you're advocating for special arrangements. And it sounds like you need to do that in math again. The curriculum and the teacher are probably just fine. I would approach it from the perspective that your child has taken a leap in math and the current approach is no longer working. Good luck!

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I'll bet you teach your kids better than anyone else does. I know that I do. And I think that schools should be accountable.

 

But, here's the difference.

 

I think that you should think about your objective and how best to accomplish it, and start from there. And to make sure that you can do that, you have to realize that teachers can assert specific powers IN THEIR OWN CLASSROOMS. So it's just prudent and strategic to take that into consideration when you're figuring out what to do. You can fight them on that, but by the time you win your child will be in another school. That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight, but it does mean that if it is crucial for your child that you be right there, there are better ways to accomplish that. If you want to establish the principle, and you know that your child will be just fine while you fight, that's another matter.

 

I get what you're saying, Carol. (Thanks for not being put off by my responses.) But I just wouldn't allow my child to attend a classroom where I wasn't allowed in. We'd switch classrooms or schools or districts if necessary.

 

I have been strategic in that I volunteer in order to know what my kids are being taught. That's only taken me so far, however, and I'm considering being a little more blunt to see if I can get better results from my teachers. Their job is not just to teach remedial or average students. My kids are their students, too. They're not doing their jobs.

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I haven't read all the replies yet, but will jump in here.

 

When I taught ps, I assumed that a primary reason parents were willing to come and help me was so they would know what was going on in my classroom. No problem. I had nothing to hide.

 

I may not have been overjoyed to be told in a suspicious way that a parent felt a need to keep an eye on me. But, it would depend entirely on how it was said.

 

My biggest gripe with parent volunteers was their gossiping to other parents about how my students performed in class. ("I can hardly believe how LOW poor little Susie is?! Today in class she couldn't read the word DOG!)" That went on a LOT, and was not fair to the kids at all. Yuck.

 

But a responsible, mature, motivated, interested, energetic adult who could keep her mouth shut about individual students outside of class was always welcome in my classroom.

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I volunteer a couple of days a week and like you, I think my kids' education is more important than being liked by the teachers or the administration.

 

The thing is, if you tell the teachers that you are there to observe them, that puts them on the defensive. I think the teachers will not be as cooperative as they have been if you make them think they are being watched and evaluated. It is much better to have them on your side when you're advocating for special arrangements. And it sounds like you need to do that in math again. The curriculum and the teacher are probably just fine. I would approach it from the perspective that your child has taken a leap in math and the current approach is no longer working. Good luck!

 

 

Finally! I knew I couldn't be the only one! ;)

 

My teachers this year have been very welcoming, appreciative, and cooperative. My point being that my first year in ps, I got HORRIBLE results being proactive, but unassertive with the teacher. Last year, our second year, was better, as I was slightly more pushy and proactive. This year is the best yet, being even more assertive, alert, and involved, but still my teachers seem to have dropped the ball.

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I haven't read all the replies yet, but will jump in here.

 

When I taught ps, I assumed that a primary reason parents were willing to come and help me was so they would know what was going on in my classroom. No problem. I had nothing to hide.

 

I may not have been overjoyed to be told in a suspicious way that a parent felt a need to keep an eye on me. But, it would depend entirely on how it was said.

 

My biggest gripe with parent volunteers was their gossiping to other parents about how my students performed in class. ("I can hardly believe how LOW poor little Susie is?! Today in class she couldn't read the word DOG!)" That went on a LOT, and was not fair to the kids at all. Yuck.

 

But a responsible, mature, motivated, interested, energetic adult who could keep her mouth shut about individual students outside of class was always welcome in my classroom.

 

 

Nice perspective. That's more of what I would expect from my teachers (and what I'm getting from the ones we have this year). Thanks, msjones!

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I'm actually amazed and pleased to hear how much access you have to your child's classroom in the first place. My sister, who has a child with a genetic mutation and has multiple special needs, including medical ones, was told flat out that she could not just come into the classroom to see what was going on, and if she did so, the school would call the police. And this was perfectly legal in our area.

 

Her child is now being homeschooled.

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I'm actually amazed and pleased to hear how much access you have to your child's classroom in the first place. My sister, who has a child with a genetic mutation and has multiple special needs, including medical ones, was told flat out that she could not just come into the classroom to see what was going on, and if she did so, the school would call the police. And this was perfectly legal in our area.

 

Her child is now being homeschooled.

 

 

There is no little smiley that expresses my reaction to that, but this one comes close. :scared: Unbelievable. And kudos to her for pulling him out of that nightmare.

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For the most part, I've been happy with my children's schools. (I hope it stays that way!) I did volunteer to help teach phonics one-on-one, was a young teacher's helper with literature and paperwork, and was the library lady which was great fun.

 

Volunteers had to sign something saying s/he would not *discuss* (gossip about) a child's progress. Most were sincerely trying to help the students, so as far as I know, it went well.

 

Good luck!

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There is no little smiley that expresses my reaction to that, but this one comes close. :scared: Unbelievable. And kudos to her for pulling him out of that nightmare.

 

I'm always sorry to hear of parents not having easy access to classrooms, but I think some of it stems from privacy issues. I mentioned the gossiping-classroom-volunteer phenomena earlier and believe it's a real problem. Some moms come in to class and seem bound and determined to find a kid struggling more than her kid. Then, she likes to let everyone know so her kid seems a little smarter in the eyes of the other moms.

 

Like I said before...yuck.

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As a former classroom teacher - I would hate that. It would seem like you were looking/waiting for something bad to happen. I don't know you, so I can tell you that some parents (hopefully not you) are disruptive. I have had a parent wipe her little one's nose in class with the kid yelling in protest. A parent telling her little one that the answer she put down is not the one she should put down.

 

What is your point - if you don't trust what is going on there... why are you there? If you just want to know what is happening in the classroom to support the teacher at home with further activities, then ask the teacher for more updates.

 

I say volunteer away, but look at what your motive is... to help your child and the teacher or to find fault?

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My 3rd grade dd teacher is amazing. She wants to know everything I have used with my dd and has even gone out to purchase some materials to use in her class that we homeschooled with. I am thrilled. She allows my dd to use her abeka 4th grade math book and grades it along with her other work. My 1st grader's teacher isnt as talkative but she accepts if my dd does her work in a different format as long as it is more then she asked for! I like to push them to do a bit more then they expect from typical kids. I can get into her class on any day. (not true for public school...we had never been allowed in unless scheduled)

 

NOW>......my 8th grade in public school is another issue. I have a meeting today at 9am to discuss his issues. MY SONs Middle school teachers here dont seem to care...I stress...My sons teachers (I dont want to make a blanket statement). I have been asking to please let me know what they are working on and what I can do at home to keep my son who falls behind on task...but they refuse to call me...email me...or anything!!! I find this super frustrating.

 

 

I agree the teachers might feel you are overstepping in some grades...esp middle school...and they are not used to parents wanted to be involved in their child's education. I just dont get it. I am so happy my girls are in Private school and I can go in and talk to the teachers anytime! That is a huge plus. And yes...I agree...some parents are in the class demanding too much all the time! I have neighbors like that.

 

One teacher friend of mine stated she doesnt let parents in her K class any longer because she has heard tons of issues of parents coming in and making observations that are inaccurate and complaining to the principal...and then the teachers get in trouble for following rules the school set up for them...that parents might not understand. She just avoids it by not letting the parents in the class to begin with!

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OMG. The acceptance of the attitude that the government has rights to my child that supercede mine is shocking to me. I'm not a child abuser. I'm an involved parent, more of which the school district claims will be the answer to our 40% dropout rate.

 

No, it's not that they have rights to your children that supersede yours. It's that if they want to keep you OUT, then they WILL come up with a way to keep you OUT. You might want to find out what they can and cannot do to "bar" you from the classroom, should they decide they want to do that. When you know what the rules are, you'll know how hard to push. KWIM? And while I believe you have "rights" to your child, that might not necessarily mean you have "rights" to access your child's classroom, anytime, any day, without the teacher's permission. My only point is that you should check/know before you assume free access. There are other people's children in a classroom, too, not just your own.

 

FWIW, while I personally haven't had to "fight the good fight" for mine, my sister has (and is) for hers. She feels it's a losing battle, really. She's weary from the struggle. She has a son with an IEP, and the "child study team" met with her only once at the beginning of the school year -- in October, when they barely knew him. There were all these well-paid "experts" sitting there, but only one person -- my sister -- knew anything about her son. There has been NO contact from the CST since then, but only towards them in the form of my sister's advocacy for her son. She emails them (no phone calls these days, they don't give out phone numbers for teachers), but they don't email her back. She calls the school to request a meeting with a math teacher, and it becomes a Big Deal that they have to schedule two months in advance -- so the social worker can be there as a "witness to the meeting." All that for a meeting with a MATH TEACHER? And you have to WAIT TWO MONTHS to get in to see him? Really? Meanwhile, the kid is failing math.

With that as our family background, I really don't find the "They've Got You Over a Barrel" mindset so shocking. I think it's just being realistic. I sincerely hope your experience differs.

Edited by Sahamamama
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What is your point - if you don't trust what is going on there... why are you there? If you just want to know what is happening in the classroom to support the teacher at home with further activities, then ask the teacher for more updates.

 

I say volunteer away, but look at what your motive is... to help your child and the teacher or to find fault?

 

Good question. I'm there only to be my child's advocate, and am happy to help out while I do that. I know where my kids are academically and am there to make sure their time isn't being wasted as best I can. If I could have them home again, I would in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, they're in ps to stay.

 

In general, I don't trust what's going on there, but that's usually not a teacher issue, it's more of a general distrust of the establishment issue. And that's secondary, something I'm not terribly candid about (and don't plan to be) at my government school/place of employment!

 

This has turned into a very interesting thread for me. Thanks, everyone!

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My 3rd grade dd teacher is amazing. She wants to know everything I have used with my dd and has even gone out to purchase some materials to use in her class that we homeschooled with. I am thrilled. She allows my dd to use her abeka 4th grade math book and grades it along with her other work. My 1st grader's teacher isnt as talkative but she accepts if my dd does her work in a different format as long as it is more then she asked for! I like to push them to do a bit more then they expect from typical kids. I can get into her class on any day. (not true for public school...we had never been allowed in unless scheduled)

 

NOW>......my 8th grade in public school is another issue. I have a meeting today at 9am to discuss his issues. MY SONs Middle school teachers here dont seem to care...I stress...My sons teachers (I dont want to make a blanket statement). I have been asking to please let me know what they are working on and what I can do at home to keep my son who falls behind on task...but they refuse to call me...email me...or anything!!! I find this super frustrating.

 

 

I agree the teachers might feel you are overstepping in some grades...esp middle school...and they are not used to parents wanted to be involved in their child's education. I just dont get it. I am so happy my girls are in Private school and I can go in and talk to the teachers anytime! That is a huge plus. And yes...I agree...some parents are in the class demanding too much all the time! I have neighbors like that.

 

One teacher friend of mine stated she doesnt let parents in her K class any longer because she has heard tons of issues of parents coming in and making observations that are inaccurate and complaining to the principal...and then the teachers get in trouble for following rules the school set up for them...that parents might not understand. She just avoids it by not letting the parents in the class to begin with!

 

That's just what my teachers this year are like. My 2nd grader's teacher asked if she could have a conference with me to see the work ds is doing at home. I was blown away! My 3rd grader's teacher is equally interested and cooperative, and I'm thrilled to death that ds will have her next year. They've both copied dc's Saxon worksheets for them to work on in class when their other work is done, and are even using them for the other advanced kids.

 

I do plan to be IN classrooms some in middle school. :ohmy: I know I'll get heavy resistance. That's why I'm thinking the best way to go about this now. I've heard about this particular school and am currently trying to formulate any plan possible to avoid going at all or seriously limiting dc's time there. The school's reputation for academics and social problems is terrible!

 

 

No, it's not that they have rights to your children that supersede yours. It's that if they want to keep you OUT, then they WILL come up with a way to keep you OUT. You might want to find out what they can and cannot do to "bar" you from the classroom, should they decide they want to do that. When you know what the rules are, you'll know how hard to push. KWIM? And while I believe you have "rights" to your child, that might not necessarily mean you have "rights" to access your child's classroom, anytime, any day, without the teacher's permission. My only point is that you should check/know before you assume free access. There are other people's children in a classroom, too, not just your own.

 

FWIW, while I personally haven't had to "fight the good fight" for mine, my sister has (and is) for hers. She feels it's a losing battle, really. She' weary from the struggle. She has a son with an IEP, and the "child study team" met with her only once at the beginning of the school year -- in October, when they barely knew him. There were all these well-paid "experts" sitting there, but only one person -- my sister -- knew anything about her son.

There has been NO contact from the CST since then, but only towards them in the form of my sister's advocacy for her son. She emails them (no phone calls these days, they don't give out phone numbers for teachers), but they don't email her back. She calls the school to request a meeting with a math teacher, and it becomes a Big Deal that they have to schedule two months in advance -- so the social worker can be there as a "witness to the meeting." All that for a meeting with a MATH TEACHER? And you have to WAIT TWO MONTHS to get in to see him? Really? Meanwhile, the kid is failing math.

 

With that as our family background, I really don't find the "They've Got You Over a Barrel" mindset so shocking. I think it's just being realistic. I sincerely hope your experience differs.

 

Thanks for that. More and more I'm realizing that we've got a pretty good little school, as far as public schools go. Our parental involvement is off the charts. On Tuesday mornings when I go to dd's 3rd grade room, there's an adult-student ratio of about 1:5! So, despite my experience vs. my expectations, I think the parental role is more respected here than it may be in other schools.

 

And while that is truely something to be thankful for, it's not going to stop me from insisting that my kids are actually being taught. The district will not advance them (not that I would really want that), so something must be done for these kids. I think gifted or advanced kids are the most neglected in the system.

 

Our gifted program begins in 3rd grade and dd's just been accepted, so at least there's that but it's only one day a week. That's a whole other world in that classroom! I learn something new about teaching bright kids every minute I'm in that room.

Edited by BabyBre
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I think you need to bring your children home. Your children are guaranteed a free and appropriate education based on the standards for your state. If you don't like that, then pull them out.

 

You talked about other parents not being able or willing to stand up to the system. Perhaps you need to confront whatever force is keeping your children in school against your will. You need to do exactly what you are saying other parents are not willing to do.

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I haven't been as assertive as that, and truthfully I don't mind doing some photocopying. Most of my kids' teachers over the years have been sensitive to that issue and look for a balance. A lot of what I've done is in the back of the room -- prep, Friday folders etc and there's a lot of observing then. I really like working with the kids if I can. Our school has a pretty open door policy but I know it is unnerving for teachers to have people there just watching them, especially if they're projecting a judging vibe (not saying the OP is, but I saw one dad doing that and it was off-putting).

Most of my kids' teachers have asked at the beginning of the year what folks would like to do and try their best to accomodate what volunteers want. There are also field trips that constantly need chaperones and our librarian always needs help for example. I do love volunteering and this discussion has reminded me that I should do more! Some of most heartwarming experiences have been working with the kids.

 

That said, I'm at an all time low point of view about the schools. The teachers are generally fabulous but the mandate (from the feds? the public?) is to focus almost exclusively on the struggling kids without home support. I've gone from a huge champion of the public schools to being something else (not quite sure what yet) after years of seeing my kids' needs not met. So sometimes volunteering is uncomfortable because you know too much!

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It's not going to stop me from insisting that my kids are actually being taught. The district will not advance them (not that I would really want that), so something must be done for these kids. I think gifted or advanced kids are the most neglected in the system.

 

Our gifted program begins in 3rd grade and dd's just been accepted, so at least there's that but it's only one day a week. That's a whole other world in that classroom! I learn something new about teaching bright kids every minute I'm in that room.

 

:iagree:If you don't insist, who will? :grouphug: It's tough at both ends of the spectrum. I can see what my sister has dealt with (her son DOES have issues, some of which are general squirreliness and goofiness, but I'm an aunt, so I can say that). OTOH, I called the school concerning enrolling my daughter in K in the fall. She reads at a very high level, already is advanced for her age, and is just a great kid. I discussed this with the "Kindergarten Registrar" and she basically told me, "We don't really have a place for your daughter." :001_huh: I am not kidding.

 

I think, if she's doing this now, what will she be doing by September? And where will the school start her? With the sound for "b" and counting blocks? I hate to sound so stuck up, it's not that, really. But it IS frustrating to have a bright kid, isn't it?

 

Our system is the same in that G & T begins in 3rd grade. My nephew (the other one ;)) was in G & T all throughout elementary, and it was a pull-out program 1x/week -- extra group projects, basically, not really a higher level or faster pace throughout. Sigh.

 

I wish you well with your efforts and plans.

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I think you need to bring your children home. Your children are guaranteed a free and appropriate education based on the standards for your state. If you don't like that, then pull them out.

 

You talked about other parents not being able or willing to stand up to the system. Perhaps you need to confront whatever force is keeping your children in school against your will. You need to do exactly what you are saying other parents are not willing to do.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly! And, believe me, I have confronted that force - my dh. We fought the battle viciously from the day I chose to pull my oldest out of ps 7 years ago against dh's will to the day I finally agreed to compromise my principals for the sake of holding the family together. Please don't anyone suggest that I haven't taken this down to the last remaining thread. It's been absolutely agonizing for me.

 

So, given that situation, I am doing what I say other parents need to do - be as involved, aware, and active as possible. I no longer have the option of homeschooling exclusively, so I've had to shift my focus to what I DO and can have within my control. In our district, and across most of Washington state, our "free" education comes at the cost of quality. Our high school dropout rate is now 40% (that just increased from 33%), and our high school graduates have an 80% remediation rate. I can at least do my best to make sure my kids don't fall into those percentages.

 

I'm a public school parent now (as well as still a homeschooler), but I'm not taking it lying down! I'm going to be in the classroom and, at the least I'm going to protect my children and increase awareness about what I learn there. At the most, I'll be the next US Education Secretary! :patriot:

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I'm going to be quite blunt in that it appears your may be a "helicopter parent."

 

I, too, am an afterschooler. I, too, volunteer in my children's school. So, in that regard we are similar. However, the main focus of my volunteering is not about whether or not the teacher/school/system is advancing my bright children. Truly, and perhaps sadly, I don't expect that. That individual advancing, custom-tailored to my children, is all on me.

 

I help with the low-performing children. These children need so much extra help that it often makes me just weep. My kids are truly "set."

 

I never sent mine to ps with any sort of idea that their education would be better than what I could provide at home, because that just couldn't happen (I know you aren't saying that, either). But, dh wanted that, and his decision is final. I could either accept that and work with it, or buck against it. Bucking against it would harm our marriage, which would harm our children. I don't believe it would really matter so much if they know Greek and Latin if our marriage was troubled. (NOT saying yours is, but I think *mine* would be if I was so opposed to my dh's decison).

 

Breann, I've spent hundreds of hours working with the low-performing kids. It seems as though you LOVE to teach, so perhaps you could volunteer to help the teachers out in this way? I realized when my youngest went to school that I *have* to teach or something is just missing. Could this be some of your angst? Could you perhaps feel that this has been taken from you since your kids entered school? I could be far, far, off~but wanted to throw it out there because it was my experience.

 

Many young kids don't make the sudden leap to conceptual math that our curriculum, Everyday Math, requires them to make and I love working with them concretely and try to incrementally move them on. There is real joy and value to providing this type service and I find much satisfaction with helping young children with their reading and math. This is something teachers really value and need. Yes, in doing so I see things wrong with the system as a whole (and it drives me insane), but I know I can make a difference in individual kid's lives by working with them. My kids also are proud I work with the students who need help, as some of them are their friends.

 

Now, going in to observe at middle school would NOT be something my ds (8th) would be too pleased with! I think the teachers would welcome it, as they should, but my kid would be HORRIFIED!

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I visit my son's first grade class once a week. I went more for kindergarten, but he had a more organized teacher and I was available to help. Honestly, I would think you are distracting to the other children. When someone walks into the classroom, everything stops. Even if it's just for a little while, it can be very disruptive to the day. I am happy to disrupt if I am there for the benefit of the class. (helping with math facts)-

 

Don't get me wrong, I frequently email, call and have meetings with the teacher. I'm in the class a great deal- I'm a room mom, but to go sit and watch, on a several times a week basis....it sounds obsessive.

 

I applaud your ambition, but I disagree with your solution.

 

All of my guys will be home after this school year!

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I help with the low-performing children. These children need so much extra help that it often makes me just weep. My kids are truly "set." I've spent hundreds of hours working with the low-performing kids. It seems as though you LOVE to teach, so perhaps you could volunteer to help the teachers out in this way?

 

I've done this, too, and it's wonderful to help a child who struggles with reading learn to read, or a child who struggles with writing learn to write.

OTOH, there is nothing wrong with making the choice to put your energies into your own children, with investing the energy of teaching into the other end of the spectrum, with helping bright children succeed. Just my two cents. No guilt, though, either way....

Edited by Sahamamama
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My kids are their students, too. They're not doing their jobs.

 

Your kids certainly are their students too, but it isn't surprising they are not doing their job, as you put it. Their job is bigger than they are.

 

Rosie

 

P.S I take it your dh had the pleasure of directly observing the mediocre education being provided?

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I don't know where in WA you are, but in our district (Renton) and the two adjoining it (Bellevue and Issaquah) parents are not allowed to volunteer in the classroom in middle school. I've been told the same by parents in the Seattle school district as well. These are parents who were very involved in the elementary grades and were available to volunteer. Of course I don't know someone in every single school in every single district. But I'd say you could at least make the assumption that it might not be welcomed or even allowed.

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Honestly, I would think you are distracting to the other children. When someone walks into the classroom, everything stops. Even if it's just for a little while, it can be very disruptive to the day.

 

The fact is, when kids are accustomed to parents being in the classroom, and when parents are trained properly not to be disruptive, and when there is a shared discipline technique and rules in place so that consistent discipline is practiced, parents do not disrupt the classroom. I have seen this; I know this for sure.

 

I do know exactly what you're talking about, and it's just another paradigm

 

It's the same as saying that one can't homeschool because helping with homework is so difficult. Homeschooling and helping with homework are two completely different things that sound deceptively similar.

 

With a current adult to child ratio of 1:5 in those classrooms, the parent participation being non-disruptive paradigm should dominate.

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Finally! I knew I couldn't be the only one! ;)

 

My teachers this year have been very welcoming, appreciative, and cooperative. My point being that my first year in ps, I got HORRIBLE results being proactive, but unassertive with the teacher. Last year, our second year, was better, as I was slightly more pushy and proactive. This year is the best yet, being even more assertive, alert, and involved, but still my teachers seem to have dropped the ball.

 

What math curriculum is used in your DD's classroom? Can you check the publisher's website for enrichment, accelerated, or problem solving workbooks that are intended to extend that curriculum? Many math curricula do have those available, and they are not all that expensive. Harcourt is one that I have bought from/recommended in a similar circumstance. You could procure these books and either afterschool your child with more advanced material that extends the work she is doing in class, or ask that she be allowed to work in them instead of the standard worksheets, after the teacher covers the same material. That way she would not be as bored in class, hopefully, and would be able to work at her level without 'working ahead' so much.

 

If what you want her to do is skip a grade in math, that's another story; but it doesn't seem like you're on a path like that.

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Your post gives me a real creepy feeling. I've taught in ps, I've homeschooled and now I teach part time and afterschool. I also volunteer.

 

My role as a volunteer is to make my child's teacher's job easier. So, I do all the crappy time consuming little jobs I can so he or she can spend more time planning exciting lessons that meet everyone's needs. There are 25 kiddos besides mine in the room. The teacher has to provide an appropriate education to each child and meet state requirements while doing so. The teacher does not (and cannot) maximize every child's potential. He or she may be able to provide sparks of enrichment here and there, but maximizing potential on a daily basis is not going to happen. The truth is enrichment is a parent's job, not the school's. The school provides basic instruction based state mandates and benchmarks.

 

It sounds like your goal is hover and demand regular changes in the classroom for your dc. So, the teacher is supposed to devote a significant chunk of time to adjusting things for you dc. I'd like to you honestly add up the time you take from the and figure out if it's humanly possible to devote that much individual time to each every child.

 

Honestly, from what you've written no one will be a good enough teacher.

 

The teacher needs to be permitted to design lessons that meet the dynamics of the class. That's not perfect. It's just what has to happen. Many people like a more individual approach so they home school or seek private schools with small class sizes.

 

Do you afterschool? What subjects? If you want more math, why don't you afterschoool math.

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Your post gives me a real creepy feeling. I've taught in ps, I've homeschooled and now I teach part time and afterschool. I also volunteer.

 

My role as a volunteer is to make my child's teacher's job easier. So, I do all the crappy time consuming little jobs I can so he or she can spend more time planning exciting lessons that meet everyone's needs. There are 25 kiddos besides mine in the room. The teacher has to provide an appropriate education to each child and meet state requirements while doing so. The teacher does not (and cannot) maximize every child's potential. He or she may be able to provide sparks of enrichment here and there, but maximizing potential on a daily basis is not going to happen. The truth is enrichment is a parent's job, not the school's. The school provides basic instruction based state mandates and benchmarks.

 

It sounds like your goal is hover and demand regular changes in the classroom for your dc. So, the teacher is supposed to devote a significant chunk of time to adjusting things for you dc. I'd like to you honestly add up the time you take from the and figure out if it's humanly possible to devote that much individual time to each every child.

 

Honestly, from what you've written no one will be a good enough teacher.

 

The teacher needs to be permitted to design lessons that meet the dynamics of the class. That's not perfect. It's just what has to happen. Many people like a more individual approach so they home school or seek private schools with small class sizes.

 

Do you afterschool? What subjects? If you want more math, why don't you afterschoool math.

 

 

I had the EXACT same vibe from reading her post. I volunteer one day a week in my kids' class, and my goal while I am there is to make the teacher's job easier. She knows it, and she has begun to plan things around my time there. She almost always gets an art project planned for me to do with 3/4 of the class while she works with a small group. A small group that wouldn't happen if I wasn't there to take over the rest of the class.

 

There are also 2 kids who consistently disrupt the class. I go and sit down RIGHT BESIDE the trouble-maker and enthusiastically participate in the songs, watch the book being read, do the silly dance with the class, etc., and give of course give the fish eye to the naughty child as necessary. Not disciplining the kids, but certainly helping the teacher to focus on providing a great lesson more than she is able to do when I am not there.

 

I think going in with an attitude of "I am willing to do whatever it takes to improve ALL the kids' educations" will get you a lot farther than the adversarial attitude you seem to be going in with.

 

I have found that after working hard to work WITH the teacher, she is SO willing to listen to my concerns (which I state as being about my kids, as opposed to about her) and provide extra support as I request. Being partners, instead of enemies, has really worked well in my situation.

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I'm going to be quite blunt in that it appears your may be a "helicopter parent."

 

I, too, am an afterschooler. I, too, volunteer in my children's school. So, in that regard we are similar. However, the main focus of my volunteering is not about whether or not the teacher/school/system is advancing my bright children.

 

 

 

I understand internet posts can be hard to make accurate assessments from. Rest assured, I am not a helicopter. I merely want the 6 hours every day that my kids spend in school to be more than just social time plus busywork. That is the main focus of my volunteering so, you're right, we're different that way.

 

 

Honestly, I would think you are distracting to the other children. When someone walks into the classroom, everything stops. Even if it's just for a little while, it can be very disruptive to the day.

 

 

:lol: I did have to laugh when I read the suggestion that the kids are disrupted by parents in the classroom! Maybe it's our school's high rate of parental volunteers, but our kids are extremely used to seeing parents at school, in the classrooms, in the lunchroom, reading with kids in the halls, tutoring math in the back of the classroom. I know most of the names of our 300+ kids, and they know me, because I also work the lunch hour at the school. I think they may be more disrupted if they didn't see us for a while!

 

 

P.S I take it your dh had the pleasure of directly observing the mediocre education being provided?

 

Not often directly, but you better believe he hears every little bit that I can relay to him. He had briefly been suggesting that I consider working more hours until I told him what I heard in my 2nd grader's room last week. The student teacher, during a lesson about character where the kids were writing character traits of Abraham Lincoln on his stovepipe hat (which included that he was "tall" and "strong"), told the class that Lincoln had fought and died in the Civil War. :001_huh: My ds quietly said from the back of the room, "No. He was shot by John Wilkes Booth in a theater." Of course I couldn't be prouder, but THAT is why I want to be in the classroom! Dh is completely delighted that I continue to teach our kids at home and am an advocate for them at school. He says they have the "best of both worlds" this way.

 

 

My role as a volunteer is to make my child's teacher's job easier.

 

The teacher has to provide an appropriate education to each child and meet state requirements while doing so. The teacher does not (and cannot) maximize every child's potential. He or she may be able to provide sparks of enrichment here and there, but maximizing potential on a daily basis is not going to happen. The truth is enrichment is a parent's job, not the school's. The school provides basic instruction based state mandates and benchmarks.

 

It sounds like your goal is hover and demand regular changes in the classroom for your dc. So, the teacher is supposed to devote a significant chunk of time to adjusting things for you dc. I'd like to you honestly add up the time you take from the and figure out if it's humanly possible to devote that much individual time to each every child.

 

Honestly, from what you've written no one will be a good enough teacher.

 

Do you afterschool? What subjects? If you want more math, why don't you afterschoool math.

 

Please read my signature. You'll see that I not only afterschool math, but almost a full basic curriculum.

 

I completely reject that all public school teachers should to is teach to standard. That means that bright kids are intended to sit intellectually idle for 6 hours a day. That means that it's about mandates and politics, and not about the kids. My kids deserve just as much of their teacher's time as the strugglers, and I know for a fact that my teachers agree.

 

 

I volunteer one day a week in my kids' class, and my goal while I am there is to make the teacher's job easier. She knows it, and she has begun to plan things around my time there. She almost always gets an art project planned for me to do with 3/4 of the class while she works with a small group. A small group that wouldn't happen if I wasn't there to take over the rest of the class.

 

I think going in with an attitude of "I am willing to do whatever it takes to improve ALL the kids' educations" will get you a lot farther than the adversarial attitude you seem to be going in with.

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of judgement in the full version of this post. Like I said, it's hard to make accurate assessments via internet post.

 

It's wonderful you're working so closely with the kids. I also do that. My 2nd grade teacher divides the class and has me teach half their science lessons. My 3rd grade teacher has me pull individual kids and tutor in math concepts she feels are lacking in the curriculum (TERC Investigations, by the way. Many posters have asked.). I taught Allie her ABCs and 123s in kindergarten, and brought her reading level up a full grade level last year. I love getting to know the kids this way, I enjoy teaching, and it usually keeps me in the classroom. I don't know why it's being assumed that I refuse to help. In fact, I said that I was happy to help.

 

I think this thread has gone in the wrong direction in that it's being assumed that I enter my kids' classrooms every day with my arms crossed and a scowl on my face, ready to kick some public teacher butt! Come on, people. I'm a mom and a human being just like you. I don't march around being nasty and demanding to the people around me, do you? I'm not sure what in my original post suggested that that was my demeanor.

 

But I guess I can see that being candid will make me, ironically, misunderstood.

Edited by BabyBre
I misread Jean's post.
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From one mom to another from Washington State I just have to say, "You Rock!" I get that you would really like to exclusively homeschool your children but you are respecting your dh's wishes. I get that you're not taking the easy way out and just sending them off to school to learn whatever, but are involved in their schooling. I get that you want the best for them and want to challenge their minds. I get that you care about the other kids in the classroom and help them along to shore up their weaknesses. Good job, Mom!

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From one mom to another from Washington State I just have to say, "You Rock!" I get that you would really like to exclusively homeschool your children but you are respecting your dh's wishes. I get that you're not taking the easy way out and just sending them off to school to learn whatever, but are involved in their schooling. I get that you want the best for them and want to challenge their minds. I get that you care about the other kids in the classroom and help them along to shore up their weaknesses. Good job, Mom!

 

*sniff*sniff* Thanks so much, Sue!

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I'm a little confused. You are there to "listen" and you will help if you are not distracted from that job, but you don't cause distractions to young children by walking in and out of the room during a lesson??

 

I don't understand the boldness you are willing to express to an adult you are not related to in regard to your children and their need, yet you choose not to allow your children to homeschool because you've given that choice to another adult.

 

I see a lot of public school bashers here and I agree with some, but...I have never met a parent that doesn't want the child's day to be academically productive.

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*sniff*sniff* Thanks so much, Sue!

 

From the comments section of my fav math blog, "Kitchen Table Math"

 

"Cliff Mass of the University of Washington surveyed his Atmospheric Science 101 class at the University of Washington and found the following:

 

Consider these embarrassing statistics from the exam: The overall grade was 58%

 

43% did not know the formula for the area of a circle

86% could not do a simple algebra problem (problem 4b)

75% could not do a simple scientific notation problem (1e)

52% could not deal with a negative exponent (2 to the -2)

43% could not do simple long division problem with no remainder!

47% did not know what a cosine was.

 

Shocking does not begin to describe it. I recommend everyone go over the Seattle's "Where's the Math" website and take a look at the great stuff they've accumulated there as they have been involved in the lawsuit."

 

-K

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I'm a little confused. You are there to "listen" and you will help if you are not distracted from that job, but you don't cause distractions to young children by walking in and out of the room during a lesson??

 

I don't understand the boldness you are willing to express to an adult you are not related to in regard to your children and their need, yet you choose not to allow your children to homeschool because you've given that choice to another adult.

 

I see a lot of public school bashers here and I agree with some, but...I have never met a parent that doesn't want the child's day to be academically productive.

 

 

If this is directed to me, the OP, you are indeed very confused. I strongly feel I shouldn't dignify this post and refrain from further comment, but I'll do my best here.

 

As I explained in my last post, no, our kids are not distracted by the comings and goings of the many adults at our school. On certain days, my dd's room has two parent volunteers, one support staff member (to lighten the teacher's load due to the number of "qualified" students in the class), a student teacher, and the teacher herself, plus MANY student pull-outs all day long for special ed, speech therapy, etc, all coming and going through the door as needed. This occurs in many of our classrooms. It's commonplace at our school.

 

As I explained in my last post, my children do still homeschool, and that "other adult" who has influenced their also attending public school is my amazing husband to whom I am committed for life, whom I chose to be the father of my children, and from whom I choose not to be divorced. But thanks for judging. The thought that I somehow owe more respect to the teacher I'll know for nine months and who isn't keeping the promises she made, than I do to my husband is assinine, but I am never disrespectful to my kids' teachers or anyone else. Are you? Being interested in what dc are learning is not disrespectful.

 

Your last statement has me completely flummoxed and reveals that you haven't read the entire thread. I'm not sure where you got that notion, but academic productivity is ALL I want.

 

Hope that clears things up.

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From the comments section of my fav math blog' date=' "Kitchen Table Math"

 

"Cliff Mass of the University of Washington surveyed his Atmospheric Science 101 class at the University of Washington and found the following:

 

Consider these embarrassing statistics from the exam: The overall grade was 58%

 

43% did not know the formula for the area of a circle

86% could not do a simple algebra problem (problem 4b)

75% could not do a simple scientific notation problem (1e)

52% could not deal with a negative exponent (2 to the -2)

43% could not do simple long division problem with no remainder!

47% did not know what a cosine was.

 

Shocking does not begin to describe it. I recommend everyone go over the Seattle's "Where's the Math" website and take a look at the great stuff they've accumulated there as they have been involved in the lawsuit."

 

-K[/quote']

 

 

Thanks, K. I have seen that board and I have a friend who's very active in trying to improve math education here and at the state level.

 

I have certainly put very shocking information in front of dh over the course of our homeschool battle. He's one that's fixated on "normal". I'm not sure what it would take for him to feel that "normal" isn't necessarily a good thing! In our district, "normal" means that one of our three kids won't graduate. It doesn't help my arguement that dc still excell over their peers because I continue to homeschool, that our elementary school is quite good comparatively, or that dd's been accepted into the gifted program. With all that in place, how could they not be getting everything they need?

 

I may have come to better terms over the last 3 years with losing my kids, but that doesn't mean I'm doing it quietly. I see a problem in the schools and I'm going to do everything I can to avoid that becomming a problem for my kids, and maybe I can make an even bigger difference at the same time.

 

Thanks!

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Your last statement has me completely flummoxed and reveals that you haven't read the entire thread. I'm not sure where you got that notion, but academic productivity is ALL I want.

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

 

I'm sorry if my comments were offensive. I did not intend them that way! It is difficult to show disenting argument while showing pleasantness on a web forum. I mean no disrespect, I just don't understand your position.

 

My point about the above quote:- yes, this is what all ps parents I have ever met want. I just beg to differ with the way you acheive it.

 

I don't know your background with homeschool vs. public school. If you have a spouse that is very adament in a different direction than you, then I'm sorry. That must be extremely difficult. I can't grasp that situation. I truly don't understand it. We obviously deal with ostacles in different ways.

 

 

I do wish you well with your children's academic journey! As I mentioned in a previous post, I admire your ambition, I just don't agree with your methods.

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