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Veritas Press (VP) or Tapestry of Grace (TOG)

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#51 Prose

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:56 AM

I'm really curious about the MP products as well. I just love everything they do.

I have used the VP guides and they are reading comprehension and hands-on activities. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it's necessary for my goals at this time. I think I'm better off informally discussing and using narration with literature. But I am curious about the MP guides. They seem to be trying to do something different. They are also covering far fewer books in greater depth, so I would consider those.

I started off using VP as written years ago and burned myself out bad. It's just too much...everything. Now that I am more LCC, I feel the liberty to pick and choose. The VP lit guides could be helpful for directing discussion but I certainly wouldn't feel the need to write answers to every question.



Sorry:tongue_smilie:what is lcc?

#52 woolybear

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:15 AM

Latin Centered Curriculum


Woolybear

#53 mom2maddie

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:32 AM

I think the individual price is still $49...but the history and Bible plans are separate so you would need both if you are going to use VP for both History and Bible...does that make sense? The $49 is referring to the Scholars lessons plans only, you still need to purchase the materials. I would encourage anyone who is interested to email first and ask questions. I was given so much info that way and was given prices, etc.

Susan

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:53 AM

Cajun.classical.... thank you so much for the very detailed post. This has really helped me to see how this works. :)


Or, if you've already been through history once, you might do a year of something a la SL core 5 and come back to VP for Omnibus in 7th. I lot of maturing is going to happen between now and 7th, and that great books study might suddenly look very age-appropriate. I actually started the VP history a year early so we could have 6th grade to do just this.


Thank you Elizabeth. Omnibus scares me..lol. It just looks like too much for my dd to handle. She still struggles with writing. Well it's not that she can't write, it's that she doesn't want to. She's still in the frame of mind that she could care less about homeschool. sigh
This kid drives me crazy. She is so unmotivated.

Thank you for the suggestion, though, that is something to consider. Perhaps Omnibus won't look so intimidating after another year.

Kelli,
Weren't you wanting to use IEW? It looks like IEW is the scheduled writing in the lesson plans...


Yes, I am! Wow that's great if they include it!!!


Now, I'm off to see if I can figure out the website a little more and look into the scholars program you all are referring to.

#55 dsacco

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:54 AM

It's $99 for the scholar lesson plans 1st child and then $49 each individual from what I saw. I found this thread really interesting even though VP would not work for our family...I have learned a lot about it - and you guys have really figured out how to navigate their REALLY confusing website!!

#56 Medieval Mom

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:26 AM

Aargh! I thought I had history all figured out. Now I'm back to considering VP! Oh dear.... :smilielol5:

The lit selections for grade 2 are books that we've already read in 1st (ds is a pretty advanced reader). Do you VP ladies think that doing VP for "just history" combined with AO (dropping their history selections) would be too much? Something LCCish like this?


Daily: 3 R's with R&S/CLE, Memory Work (including VP cards)

Monday: VP history worksheet
Tuesday: R&S Patterns of Nature
Wed: R&S Our Father's World
Thurs: Health
Fri: BF Geography

Afternoons:
AO readings

Tell me the truth. Could this work?:confused:

#57 Heather in VA

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:39 AM

Aargh! I thought I had history all figured out. Now I'm back to considering VP! Oh dear.... :smilielol5:

The lit selections for grade 2 are books that we've already read in 1st (ds is a pretty advanced reader). Do you VP ladies think that doing VP for "just history" combined with AO (dropping their history selections) would be too much? Something LCCish like this?


Daily: 3 R's with R&S/CLE, Memory Work (including VP cards)

Monday: VP history worksheet
Tuesday: R&S Patterns of Nature
Wed: R&S Our Father's World
Thurs: Health
Fri: BF Geography

Afternoons:
AO readings

Tell me the truth. Could this work?:confused:


Sure that could work. You can make VP as much or as little as you want it to be. I'd tell your dc that it is their responsibility to learn the VP timeline (card order or song) and the info on the back of the card. The TM where you get the worksheets includes tests as well that test the card as well as review so you could do those if you want built in re-inforcement. If I'm remembering correctly your kids are younger right? So you could do them orally.

I can't remember how old your kids are but I wouldn't start VP history until somewhere late in 1st or 2nd grade.

Oops - apparently the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet because your siggy says you have a 1st grader. DUH. Anyway - yes this could work and you are just the right age for it.

Heather

#58 Jackie in NE

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:43 AM

Melissa,

I know nothing about TOG, so I can't comment on it. But I have used VP Bible and History from 2nd grade all the way through and it is excellent. My oldest is now in Omnibus III. She absolutely loves Omnibus (started with Omnibus I in 7th grade.) I'm currently using VP with multiple grades with my younger 3, and it works just fine. I just ask my older student to do a bit more by incorporating more writing, and reading more of the books suggested by VP. Also, the VP songs that go with the cards are GREAT. This is the hook, for us. It is amazing how much my dc learn during memory time. It is info. that they retain beautifully.

I don't think you can go wrong with VP. If their website is confusing, just call them. Their customer service is great. They also will allow you to sit in on an Omnibus class, if you'd like to get an idea of where all of this is going.

Blessings, Jackie

#59 OhElizabeth

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:08 AM

I actually love this idea...(it doesn't fit my situation right now, but if it did, I would so do this :D...hmmm...how can I make this work? :lol:). I don't personally know anything about SL 5, but from a cursory reading of the SL Forums it looks like Core 5 would give a dc the eastern cultures that isn't directly studied in VP as well as learning research skills that would help prepare for Omnibus? Was that your thinking, OhE?


I wanted a year to focus on missions and just something DIFFERENT. I'm not a history person, so anything that gets me away from it is good. :lol: Actually, what I think will happen is we merge history and geography and missions to cover those other, less-covered cultures. I'm just now sitting down to research and nail down how I want to do this.

Just to be clear on something, even with advanced kids, most people say starting Omnibus in 7th should be by age-grade, that it's connected to emotional development and readiness, not reading level. In other words, if your 8 yo is doing SOTW2 now, you have plenty of time to do a couple years of american (SOTW3, 4, or VP's american history years) and still have a year for something else before O1. Obviously Omnibus doesn't fit everyone, but really your dc may change a lot (or your views on what you want to cover) by the time you get there. Even WTM in its reading lists ups the ante to something similar to O1 around that age, though it calls it formal GB study starting in 9th.

To me, I just go to what calls to me. I figure if it calls to me and speaks to my heart, we're probably on the right track.

#60 jewel7123

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:10 AM

Since this thread was about TOG vs. VP, can you VP users comment on the cost of VP? It seems like it's every bit as expensive as TOG, by the time you purchase the Sholars plans, TG, cards, CD, books needed, etc. And you would only use each TG once per child, right, not cycle back three times like TOG, so it probably ends up being MORE expensive in the long run?

#61 OhElizabeth

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:15 AM

Thank you Elizabeth. Omnibus scares me..lol. It just looks like too much for my dd to handle. She still struggles with writing. Well it's not that she can't write, it's that she doesn't want to. She's still in the frame of mind that she could care less about homeschool. sigh
This kid drives me crazy. She is so unmotivated.


Believe it or not, my dd is the SAME, oh my. She can do her 1 1/2 hours of independent work and feel she ought to be done for the day. A 5th grader!!! To her the world revolves around reading, crafts, cooking, etc. She's just a homebody really. And there's a certain sense in which you can't buck it. I've bent over BACKWARDS over the years to modify things like VP, etc. to fit her. I set down the musts, and everything that is not a must I bend. For instance, those worksheets in VP aren't musts. Doing something for history is a must, but worksheets aren't. So if she reads a bookpile, that's ok. The reasons for the worksheets are to increase their writing load and to solidify the history knowledge. If she comes out learning the history, then that goal was met, even if it wasn't their way. If she writes enough in another subject, then it doesn't matter if she doesn't do it on history worksheets.

I would find what turns your dd on and what makes her tick and play to that. Right now I read history to her while she draws for her art study. It works, lol. I think a little looseness and catering to their bents now, while still requiring the essentials for SKILLS, will give them room to grow and mature till they're ready to get over themselves and do stuff like Omnibus.

#62 OhElizabeth

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:23 AM

Haven't seen the MP lit guides. The VP ones are pretty straightforward. Really, I'd only do them if you want them for the writing practice. I suppose they might be good with a reluctant reader, but I haven't had that problem.

#63 OhElizabeth

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:30 AM

Ok, I just went and looked at the MP samples at that link. They look very good!!! I don't see any hands-on, so that's a serious lack. The free Hobbit guide we found online and used had plenty of cool hands-on ideas. However I like the questions and the way they really flesh it out. The vocab exercises are great, not too tedious for a kid who already knows the words, just enough to get the job done. I'd probably go easy on the writing and add in more hands-on, artsy, cooking, etc. activities that you could find by googling. :)

#64 SophiaH

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:32 AM

So, where can I see a day of the Scholar Plan??

:-)


Hi Carrie, Did you ever get this answered?

Try this page.

#65 cajun.classical

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:33 AM

Hi Carrie, Did you ever get this answered?

Try this page.

I would also highly recommend requesting a sample week from VP. I didn't really get the program until I saw a whole week.

#66 Medieval Mom

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:00 PM

Sure that could work. You can make VP as much or as little as you want it to be. I'd tell your dc that it is their responsibility to learn the VP timeline (card order or song) and the info on the back of the card. The TM where you get the worksheets includes tests as well that test the card as well as review so you could do those if you want built in re-inforcement. If I'm remembering correctly your kids are younger right? So you could do them orally.

I can't remember how old your kids are but I wouldn't start VP history until somewhere late in 1st or 2nd grade.

Oops - apparently the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet because your siggy says you have a 1st grader. DUH. Anyway - yes this could work and you are just the right age for it.

Heather


Thanks for answering this, Heather. Sorry, OP, for hijacking the thread. :blushing: Your words (that I put in bold print above) give me confidence that this might work well for us. I'm trying to curb my impulse to add too much to our day, while still including the programs that excite us.

Yep, this would be for 2nd grade. Maybe we could start out doing the worksheets orally, and progress to written work throughout the year. (Maybe write one more sentence per week in each subject...)

Thanks again!

#67 Paintedlady

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:02 PM

Thank you Janice. I really needed to hear this. Kudos to you for doing what YOU believe is right for your family and your dedication to it.


I would also add an additional disclaimer. I have tried to be a diligent homeschooler. I've tried to provide a rigorous education for my kids.

None of my kids were ready to handle all of the books listed in the VP curriculum as it moved into 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade. (Forget using Omnibus with my oldest 7th grade son. BAD idea. Bad! And I tried. And stressed because he couldn't do it. NOR could I!!! I had NOTHING to say about those books when my oldest was in 7th grade. Yes, I could read the TE, but I couldn't teach those books. Wake up call for me! Huge wake up call!) When my oldest was in grades 3-6, I used to read the VP catalog and stress over it. I had a lot of the books. I wanted to provide a rigorous experience so I tried to use the books to educate. I believe that kids need to be stretched in order to learn, but the stretch was too much. I wasted a ton of time trying to figure out how to use the materials to educate my kids. Looking back, I can clearly label it an unnecessary stress (for me).

The debate continues with the experts about rigorous education. I will leave it to them to decide what is best for the masses.

What worked for me? Age-appropriate curriculum for my kids in history and science grew my kids; rigor was needed for my self-education. I grew the most when I pushed ME to struggle, struggle, struggle to understand things that made NO sense to me. Our homeschool grew the most when I was drowning yet struggling to breathe - when I was trying to get MY nose above the water line in order to comprehend.

Those experiences pay rich, rich dividends in this house every single day. In every single subject!

Little ones need to struggle to understand the 3R's well. History, literature, and science are for practicing those skills. Long term it was best for our homeschool when I placed the demand for rigor in the content areas on MY shoulders. Among many other things on my plate this week, I just finished a run through Alice in Wonderland again; I'll be working through some of it with my 7th grader. It should be an interesting discussion; he has the experience to enjoy the book on several levels. According to the curriculum that I am using (TOG), he is supposed to read Through the Looking Glass - TTLG. I've decided not to teach the book; he's going to start The Fellowship of the Ring instead. Apart from the chess game, I can't find anything in TTLG that I want to chat about with my 7th grade boy. I've challenged myself to work through Finnegan's Wake; maybe then I'll have something to say about TTLG. Honestly? I'm afraid of Mr. Joyce. I don't want to read any Joyce. I'm sure that I won't like it. ...but I might. So as soon as I have the time, I will. I'm sure that it will grow me. Can I read the book? maybe. But I'm not sure that I can "read" the book. I have no way of knowing whether or not I'm ready to read it. Is it rigorous? Sure; that's what I've heard. ;) Necessary for me at this minute? Not right this minute. I'm sure of that. But maybe for later. There's no rush. The longer I wait, the more I will bring to the book. Experience has taught me that. :001_smile:

For me rigor was a loose ideal when I began homeschooling. I allowed others to define it for me. I allowed others to tell me what it should look like. Eleven years of hard, hard work has propelled me toward a shift in thinking. I've learned to trust in my definition of rigor. Reading the great books, thinking about them, and listening to what others have to say about them has helped me to formulate my definition of rigor for this group of little people. Very valuable! I would heartily recommend that you explore some of the goals that you have for your kids as concretely as you can as soon as you can. Rather than allow others to choose trajectories for my arrows, it has helped me to jog over to the target and look at it a bit. Is this something I even want? If so, am I willing to pay the price to get it? (For me, the price was always higher than I thought. :001_smile: It just was. :001_smile:)

But just so you know: none of my kids could have handled the VP curriculum as written for grades 3 - 8 at the level that I deem necessary in order to educate. I couldn't get past that. Now I know that I didn't need to. I would have been covering the curriculum; I would not have been educating my kids.

I'm sure there are others who love it. Their kids are thriving in elem, jr. high, and high school with the curriculum. I hope they will chime in so you can see if your goals and experience line up with theirs.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey



#68 Paintedlady

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:08 PM

Do you all who use VP use the memory songs? My dd (4th grade level) looked at me like I was NUTS when I played one.... I'm just not sure how that would work with some kids or do you just skip the whole "song" thing?

Just curious ;)


We don't use the songs. My kids gave me the same look. Lol!

#69 jewel7123

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:32 PM

I would also highly recommend requesting a sample week from VP. I didn't really get the program until I saw a whole week.


Hey, I just emailed them about this, and they said they aren't permitted to send an entire week, only a day sample? :confused:

#70 Honey Bee

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:35 PM

Since this thread was about TOG vs. VP, can you VP users comment on the cost of VP? It seems like it's every bit as expensive as TOG, by the time you purchase the Sholars plans, TG, cards, CD, books needed, etc. And you would only use each TG once per child, right, not cycle back three times like TOG, so it probably ends up being MORE expensive in the long run?


Since I see it in "numbers" :lol::lol::lol::lol:. I'll go.

If you go here you will be able to put in the names and grades of your children to "taylor" your Scholars plans for your dc. This includes a running total. Don't let the price scare you, it includes every subject. If you go on to the next page it will give you a detailed listing and totals of each subject. Here is an example for mine:

I will have a 2nd grader in Genesis through Joshua and Old Testament and Ancienct Egypt (lower level) the price will be about $330. There is a One-time resource kit that is used over 5 years for about $200. Remember, these are retail prices and most of the price consists of books (Yippee)! The History/Bible kit teachers part is on a 2 different CD's, they are each only about $23. I think when you order through scholars, there is a 10% discount on everything so my prices reflect that. Last there are the lesson plans (if you wanted them, some don't use them), after cajun.classical's review of them, I am certainly going to get them at least once to figure how all things fit together. Now more clear:

Scholar Lesson Plans: $100
Bible History Teacher and Resources: $330
1/5th of one-time kit: $40

Total = $470 and no trips to the library.

I've already been working on some of the books and think I can knock off about $50-100 by buying used. I did also mention that this is at the "lower level" which I think is 2-3rd grade, but if you have an older one you only need to add some books to this. The scholars lessons are written for both levels, it will say "For younger children" and "for older children" to teach the different levels.

Ok, if you just wanted the Veritas Stuff:

Scholars $100
Bible/History Teacher CD's (manuals): $23 x 2 = $46
Bible and History Cards: $17 x 2 = $34

Total = $180 (10% off price) all you would need is the books and timeline materials from Homeschool in the Woods. You could do it without the scholars, and it would be even cheaper. The catalog has many different options. Some want the written teachers manual, some want it on CD, etc.

Hope this helps. I am just giving you an example of what the first ancient year looks like, I'm sure it changes a little every year since books are different. Maybe someone can comment on how expensive Omnibus is. I have 5 children, so it will be worth it for me. I do believe you spend over $300 with Tapesty to buy Units, maps, tests, etc., so that doesn't count any books yet. If somone didn't want to fork over the price for TOG, maybe Veritas CD and Cards would be a option, I also like Biblioplan if someone really wants a 4 year cycle. :001_smile:

Edited by Honey Bee, 05 March 2010 - 12:43 PM.


#71 Jackie in NE

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:50 PM

One of the things I've loved about VP is their enhanced CD's. You can print off each chapter as you go, again and again and again. I still use the same books, resources etc. that I used for my first dd 7 years ago. The books are good literature that I am glad I have "around" for my dc to pick up whenever and read. My olders also pick up those books they already read, and read them again. Great for review.

I did laminate the cards so they would last for years. I anticipate handing down these resources to my own dc if and when they hs their children. The materials are timeless.

#72 staceyobu

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:53 PM

Okay... so, if I want to teach multiple students in grades 2-6, I need the scripted lesson plans? Or are the project ideas and writing ideas and quizzes in the "kit"? The scripted lesson plan just does a daily schedule?

I'm considering using the cards to give us our "topic" for the week. I'd like some book suggestions and project ideas. I feel that I can do a daily schedule. So, what do I "need" to do this?

And, I still don't understand... if the fifth grade lit is tied to fifth grade history, what does a second grader do for lit? Am I on my own to come up with that?

#73 mrsrevmeg

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:34 PM

Since this thread was about TOG vs. VP, can you VP users comment on the cost of VP? It seems like it's every bit as expensive as TOG, by the time you purchase the Sholars plans, TG, cards, CD, books needed, etc. And you would only use each TG once per child, right, not cycle back three times like TOG, so it probably ends up being MORE expensive in the long run?


I did the math my first year of homeschooling for VP and could not afford it. TOG has been somewhat cheaper for us.

#74 SophiaH

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:42 PM

Just as a "Just the facts, ma'am" reply about the $$$, and I'm not claiming 100% accuracy either. ;) No caveats included, so please don't kill the messenger. :001_smile:

TOG: 12 years of History, Geography, Bible, and Lit
TOG DE for 4 years: $680 TOG Print: $900
Map Aids for 4 year plans: $100
Evaluations for all levels for 4 year plans: $200
Total: $980 for DE, $1200 for print
Doesn't include Writing Aids since many people use a different writing program.

VP: 11 years of History, Geography, Bible, and Lit (main program starts in 2nd grade)
VP Lesson Plans for History(not necessary, but will get you discounts on everything else) for 5 years: $245 (??-haven't gotten confirmation on $49 separate history plans)
VP Bible & History Cards/TM (bought at discount with Lesson Plans) for 5 years: $395
Omnibus 7-9: $300
Omnibus 10-12: $330
Total: $1270
Doesn't include IEW composition for comparison reasons.

Just for fun, I added up books. :D (Hey, it's 66 degrees outside and the kids are loving it! :)) For VP, these are all the books as listed in the Scholar's planning guide online that are scheduled in the Scholar's Lesson plans. They reflect the discount of buying the Lesson Plans.
For TOG, these are all the books on Bookshelf Central for that level, which include only primary resource books.

Oldest starting in Year 1 of both programs in 2nd grade:
VP Year 1 (Lower Level): $375.90
TOG Year 1 (LG): $345.38

Year 2--Oldest in 3rd grade:
VP (Lower Level): $424.13
TOG (UG): $639.81

Year 3--Oldest in 4th, younger in 2nd:
VP (Lower and Upper Level): $565.96
TOG (LG & UG): $1232.88

Year 4--Oldest in 5th, younger in 3rd:
VP (Lower and Upper Level): $597.47
TOG (UG & D): $1535.87

Year 5--Oldest in 6th, younger in 4th:
VP (Upper Level): $475.88
TOG Year 1 (UG & D): $955.67

Are these true costs? Of course not, but I thought it would interesting to compare. And it all depends also on how your children are spaced out and how many you have...OK, so I did add some caveats. :) Everyone can jump in and add their own caveats for their favored program now. :D Corrections welcome.

Edited by mommahawk, 05 March 2010 - 02:09 PM.
Corrected price of DE & Total


#75 TracyP

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:55 PM

Only correction I see is that TOG is $680 (170/year for DE). TOG also lists more books than it is assumed you would use and you can pick and choose - especially at lower levels.:001_smile:

#76 SophiaH

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 02:04 PM

Oh, you're right, Tracy! Where did I get $225??? Is that the print? I'll correct it in my earlier post...

#77 abrightmom

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:00 PM

Just wanted to add in a little tidbit (it may have been covered by someone else but just in case . . . ):

I called Veritas Press and asked a few questions. She clarified one thing for me which I was confused about. In the Scholars plans the cost is $49 for ONE discipline (i.e. history OR Bible OR something else). If you want more than that it is $99 (includes as many subjects as you'd like to use - I believe it includes all of them and you are free to pick/choose as you'd like).

I also gleaned that their history study is the rise of Western Civilization and so it omits studies of China, Africa, etc. I am NOT very well educated (:confused:) and so I don't know how important this is and whether or not we'd want to make up for that somehow.

IS that important? If VP is the history choice (LOVE the idea of the cards and the resources used) then how does one make up for the missing civilizations? Read SOTW? Maybe a combination is the best move here. Sigh sigh sigh. :001_unsure:

Also, American history isn't studied/looked at until 5th grade (if one starts Ancients in 2nd). That seems BAD :). Any current or potential VP users able to comment on that?

It guess it boils down to preferences here . . . it's so so so so hard to weave all of these threads together to make a sound decision. I'm going to put it all on paper, spread it out on the floor and PRAY hard. I told my husband that I hoped God would incinerate the plans we shouldn't do and cause dew to form on the plan we should do!!! :lol: If only . . . .

#78 Medieval Mom

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:14 PM

Just wanted to add in a little tidbit (it may have been covered by someone else but just in case . . . ):

I called Veritas Press and asked a few questions. She clarified one thing for me which I was confused about. In the Scholars plans the cost is $49 for ONE discipline (i.e. history OR Bible OR something else). If you want more than that it is $99 (includes as many subjects as you'd like to use - I believe it includes all of them and you are free to pick/choose as you'd like).

I also gleaned that their history study is the rise of Western Civilization and so it omits studies of China, Africa, etc. I am NOT very well educated (:confused:) and so I don't know how important this is and whether or not we'd want to make up for that somehow.

IS that important? If VP is the history choice (LOVE the idea of the cards and the resources used) then how does one make up for the missing civilizations? Read SOTW? Maybe a combination is the best move here. Sigh sigh sigh. :001_unsure:

Also, American history isn't studied/looked at until 5th grade (if one starts Ancients in 2nd). That seems BAD :). Any current or potential VP users able to comment on that?

It guess it boils down to preferences here . . . it's so so so so hard to weave all of these threads together to make a sound decision. I'm going to put it all on paper, spread it out on the floor and PRAY hard. I told my husband that I hoped God would incinerate the plans we shouldn't do and cause dew to form on the plan we should do!!! :lol: If only . . . .


I've had similar hesitations in using VP. I've looked at it numerous times and rejected it. Maybe I should remember that:confused: I've often told my dh that I wish God would send me a nice letter in the mail outlining my curriculum :001_wub: Wouldn't that be nice? :Angel_anim:

Good luck!

#79 Honey Bee

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:17 PM

Thanks for adding up all the costs, I know that was a lot of work! I was sorta surprised at the gigantic price of TOG books when you have more than one child. VP will be pretty pricey too. Thanks again, just nice to see it all lined out like that. :)

#80 Janice in NJ

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

Heather,

I didn't mean to give the impression that VP is an incomplete program for the grammar stage or any other level. I just meant that each individual level of VP is not a K-Mom plan for ancient history. The 2nd grade program teaches elementary history; it does not claim to help a parent teach the great books. That material is offered in VP Omnibus I and IV.

Nor did I mean to say that a parent who uses VP will be ill-equipped to teach Omnibus when her student gets to 7th grade. I believe that we can agree that the VP 2nd grade program does not claim to provide help for a parent who feels the need to start looking ahead to prepare to teach high school. TOG can. TOG can be used to teach only 2nd grade history, and the Mom can use the high-school level material in her weekly class-plan to begin looking ahead if she wants to. TOG is not better; for some Moms VP is better.

* I would venture to say that a parent who wants to cover history in a "rigorous" way at the 2nd grade level may be happier with VP.

Note the Core resources for Egypt for 2nd grade:
http://www.veritaspr...p?number=000106
I have these books; I've used these books with my kids. I believe that I can use the sample book list to illustrate our experience: My kids could understand some of the material in the CAYP when they were in elementary school, but they weren't ready to "read" it, and I couldn't teach elementary-level history with these books. I am not challenging anyone else's ability to teach 2nd grade history with these books. (I'm sorry if my post seemed that way. I apologize.) Actually, I'm impressed; my hat is off to you. I couldn't teach this level with these books. I just couldn't. I needed the materials offered with other programs - SOTW, Sonlight, etc. Eventually I stumbled onto TOG. A search for Y1 U1 LG or UG History resources at TOG's Bookshelf Central will produce much easier books. BUT the Mom who wants that kind of "rigor" in her history program will be constantly frustrated with TOG. It's not designed with that level of reading skills in mind at the 2nd grade (LG or maybe UG) level.


* I would also suggest that a mom who wants to cover 2nd grade history with her kids, but is also hankering to start preparing to teach the great books may be happier with TOG.

And I'm not saying that a parent needs to prepare ahead of time in order to teach high school history and literature. I'm just offering my experience. I needed to. The efforts that I made to prepare ahead of time were worth it for our family. I am incredibly strapped for time; I diligently work hard and am barely able to keep up with this family's schedule. I am grateful for the foundation that I have.

But every family is different. I do not doubt that some children are ready to acquire reading, thinking, and writing skills from a book like the CAYP in the 2nd grade; mine were not. Few moms feel the need to start working through high-school level material before high school; I did. Either way it looks like things have worked out well for both of us. Understanding the differences in curriculum has always been helpful for me. I was just trying to offer the OP the details of my thought process and how it has worked out for me. I was certainly not trying to say anything negative about VP's program. I respect their curriculum and understand that it is a wonderful choice for many families. Please forgive me if I wasn't clear about that.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

#81 ariasmommy

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 05:45 PM

What worked for me? Age-appropriate curriculum for my kids in history and science grew my kids; rigor was needed for my self-education. I grew the most when I pushed ME to struggle, struggle, struggle to understand things that made NO sense to me. Our homeschool grew the most when I was drowning yet struggling to breathe - when I was trying to get MY nose above the water line in order to comprehend.

Those experiences pay rich, rich dividends in this house every single day. In every single subject!



Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey


Your wisdom and encouragement have been a great blessing to me Janice.
I read your encouragment to moms to self-educate last year on the TOG boards when I began researching TOG. I wasn't quite ready to take the plunge then, but a year later, I think I am. I really am the oldest student here, having never read many of the classics recommended in WTM and TOG. We'll be starting Year 2, Unit 3 soon, and I think I may just tackle Paradise Lost. :D

Love your siggy, too - something I need to remember to do every day - they're growing so fast!

#82 Janice in NJ

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:42 PM

Anna,

Wow. Paradise Lost might be a tough place to begin. Honestly? I tried to read that poem on three different occasions. I kept falling asleep. So while I wish you well with it, don't get discouraged if epic poetry ends up being a tough place to start. I'm enjoying a bunch of other books with good success. Someday I'll give PL another try. Someday....:001_smile:

Peace,
Janice

#83 Jackie in NE

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:01 PM

Just wanted to add in a little tidbit (it may have been covered by someone else but just in case . . . ):

I called Veritas Press and asked a few questions. She clarified one thing for me which I was confused about. In the Scholars plans the cost is $49 for ONE discipline (i.e. history OR Bible OR something else). If you want more than that it is $99 (includes as many subjects as you'd like to use - I believe it includes all of them and you are free to pick/choose as you'd like).

I also gleaned that their history study is the rise of Western Civilization and so it omits studies of China, Africa, etc. I am NOT very well educated (:confused:) and so I don't know how important this is and whether or not we'd want to make up for that somehow.

IS that important? If VP is the history choice (LOVE the idea of the cards and the resources used) then how does one make up for the missing civilizations? Read SOTW? Maybe a combination is the best move here. Sigh sigh sigh. :001_unsure:

Also, American history isn't studied/looked at until 5th grade (if one starts Ancients in 2nd). That seems BAD :). Any current or potential VP users able to comment on that?

It guess it boils down to preferences here . . . it's so so so so hard to weave all of these threads together to make a sound decision. I'm going to put it all on paper, spread it out on the floor and PRAY hard. I told my husband that I hoped God would incinerate the plans we shouldn't do and cause dew to form on the plan we should do!!! :lol: If only . . . .


I've heard of many people incorporating a little bit of SOTW with VP, (me included). It is a little break for us once in a while, and it covers those interesting Asian and African historical events and cultures. But VP is a history of Western Civilization, it doesn't claim to be otherwise.

I don't think it's BAD to put off American History at all. We are, after all, latecomers to history (Americans, I mean) and VP is a chronological study. But I suppose it would depend on what your goals are. Do you plan to go through to Omnibus? Do you value a chronological study? Do you plan on putting your dc into public school eventually? I have always thought that if I suddenly decided to put my dc into public school, I would simply survey American History the summer before.

HTH, Jackie

#84 Pylegang

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 09:40 PM

In regards to the cost of VP Scholars . . .


When you purchase your initial package through VP, you purchase a one time resource kit that includes:
  • IEW Teaching Writing & Style DVD/Notebook Set
  • CHOW
  • Journey through the Bible
  • Homeschool in the Woods Timeline book, placement guide and figures set
  • KHE
  • Bible Atlas
These resources cost about $380, but you will not need to purchase these supplies again -- and you will be able to use them for other children (with the exception of the Timeline notebook). These resources are used each year from 2nd - 6th grade. Some of the resources (IEW, KHE & timeline can be used beyond 6th!) You can also omit any resource that you truly feel you do not need/want or already have.

In addition you can customize your scholars lesson plan order. For example, you can purchase 2nd grade literature, 3rd grade Shurley English, Latin for Children level A and any history package you choose, etc. You can even "opt out" of particular subjects such as Math and English and do your own thing. You can purchase all or some of the subjects for $99 or one subject for $49.

Edited by Pylegang, 05 March 2010 - 09:43 PM.


#85 Pylegang

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 09:55 PM

Here is a 16 minute video that walks you through how VP is done. This shows a classroom setting, but VP is implemented this way at home, too.

FYI--The scholars lesson plans describe how you can do motions for the history cards, how to introduce the material and provide background information about each history card. Writing, literature, history are integrated across the curriculum. The lesson plans are extremely easy to follow and IMO, thorough.



#86 SilverMoon

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:43 PM

I doubt I've spent more than $150 for any year of Veritas history we've done. We only do the history though, and I've never bought Scholars. I buy the kit (TM on disk, cards, songs), the more spine like resources that are suggested and a few of the other books (most used or most interesting to us). Each kid has their own timeline that will last them through high school (the free-for-the-printing book of centuries from Simply Charlotte Mason). We get the majority of the literature and some extra history reading from the library. We're there every week anyway, and I've been able to get nearly all of them through the loan system if our library doesn't have it.

#87 Guest_aquiverfull_*

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 12:22 AM

Believe it or not, my dd is the SAME, oh my.


Whew! What a relief. :) I'm glad to hear that my dd is not the only one. I was beginning to think we were really badly behind. I appreciate your wisdom and suggestions so very much!! :) I always enjoy reading your posts and find them very helpful. I'm going to have to think about what turns her crank and start catering to it while still getting in the skills I want her to acquire. Thank you!! :)

Heather, thank you for breaking down the costs of VP/TOG. That was very interesting. :)

#88 FlockOfSillies

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 05:08 AM

I've felt this way doing TOG Y2. They're covering SOTW2 and part of 3 (something I didn't know before I bought it -- OUCH!), and it's just way too much. My dd10 had 50 pages a week to read, and she got totally bogged down. I've dropped TOG and have gone back to SOTW2 for my littles and helping my oldest outline KHE a ala WTM. I put together a list correlating SOTW2 with TOG weeks, and we're trying to cover the rest of SOTW2 by the end of the year. I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I think my dd10 feels the same way.

#89 OhElizabeth

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 08:36 AM

Katrina, the VP Academy (real life school) covers state and local history in 1st. You can see this on the syllabus in their resource section. So you could do a survey of american then lauch into world, like we did, or you could bring things in as read alouds or readers in the summer, etc. My dd loves history, so she has always read multiple time periods at the same time. The COFA's are wonderful and provide a survey of american history with no effort on your part. You could read the Rainbow Book of American History or similar book during the summer.

About the difficult spines and resources. VP doesn't ask a young dc to read the WHOLE THING, mercy. They list multiple resources on every single card, so you can find the book you like. If you don't like theirs, you can even bring in your own. It's TOTALLY flexible. And when they cite a challenging spine like that, often they're just reading a paragraph or two for a very concise explanation. A student can handle a paragraph or page from Streams or CAYP or similar book, where they might not be ready to read the whole thing, kwim?

I wouldn't faint over this issue. VP is totally flexible.

#90 abrightmom

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 08:58 AM

Katrina, the VP Academy (real life school) covers state and local history in 1st. You can see this on the syllabus in their resource section. So you could do a survey of american then lauch into world, like we did, or you could bring things in as read alouds or readers in the summer, etc. My dd loves history, so she has always read multiple time periods at the same time. The COFA's are wonderful and provide a survey of american history with no effort on your part. You could read the Rainbow Book of American History or similar book during the summer.

About the difficult spines and resources. VP doesn't ask a young dc to read the WHOLE THING, mercy. They list multiple resources on every single card, so you can find the book you like. If you don't like theirs, you can even bring in your own. It's TOTALLY flexible. And when they cite a challenging spine like that, often they're just reading a paragraph or two for a very concise explanation. A student can handle a paragraph or page from Streams or CAYP or similar book, where they might not be ready to read the whole thing, kwim?

I wouldn't faint over this issue. VP is totally flexible.

OhE, What are the COFAs? :D

#91 OhElizabeth

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:12 AM

COFA=Childhood of Famous Americans series. There are about 60 in print and over 200 including the oop.

#92 abrightmom

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:22 AM

COFA=Childhood of Famous Americans series. There are about 60 in print and over 200 including the oop.



Thank-you!!!

#93 sarahv

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:30 AM

Thanks for a great thread! I'm planning on starting VP History with my oldest in a couple of years, and wanted to comment on cost. I'm not able to locate this information from their website, but I was pretty sure (doing some fairly extensive research last year) that the Scholars plans were $199 for the first child if you didn't order books from them. The $99 price for the first child, with $49 for additional children is the price for if you order the other materials from them, too (books, namely). Has anyone gotten this from recent research?

#94 happy2teach

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 01:29 PM

Haven't seen the MP lit guides. The VP ones are pretty straightforward. Really, I'd only do them if you want them for the writing practice. I suppose they might be good with a reluctant reader, but I haven't had that problem.



What does MP stand for? Thanks

#95 5KidzRUs

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 02:32 PM

What does MP stand for? Thanks


I think MP refers to Memoria Press.

Those of you that use Omnibus - Do you use the CD as your TM or do you buy yourself your own ($100) text???

Do you buy the literature from VP or do you use library or/and used books?

Love this thread!

#96 OhElizabeth

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 06:33 PM

Patty-The cd tm for Omnibus comes bundled with the student text. I don't know if you can buy it separately. VP will price match by phone, making it a little less painful to buy from them.

#97 abrightmom

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 12:03 AM

OhE,

What would you say to this scenario:

Oldest going into 2nd (perfect timing for beginning the VP 5 year cycle, on track for Omni) BUT we also have Sonlight Core 5 on our plan for somewhere in the logic stage (when I thought I might do MFW it fit perfectly on the grid but I'm waffling on something so "planned"). If we take our year to do Core 5, which at this point is very important, then we'd have to skip Omnibus for 7th grade. I know you haven't used Omni yet but do you have any thoughts?

Can a family use the Omnibus in part rather than all the way through? Do you just begin with Omni I regardless of the grade? What about having two children in the Omnibus at once? Eeeeeeks!

Thanks for all of your input both here and on the yahoo group (I think it's your wisdom I have been gleaning as you've answered questions from other Moms).

#98 bnneale

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 01:53 AM

We have used TOG for three years now and love it. I do find that I supplement with other things sometimes for ease of planning (ie. short unit studies). I love the overall worldview that is presented in TOG. My kids are truly learning history through the filter of God's handiwork and grace throughout the ages. I have never seen VP, but my two comments would be.

1. TOG is very teacher intensive as far as planning, so if you aren't a planner, I would choose something different.
2. I think spending one year on Egypt and then another on Greece and Rome is a bit of overkill. I like how TOG spends more time on modern history.

#99 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 02:21 PM

Katrina, if you like MFW, have you thought about continuing into MFW Adventures? The VP elementary history sequence is NOT the only path to Omnibus. I think you also should consider the ages of kids you have, their bents, their dispositions, and WHEN it might be a good fit. Given that you have a 7 yo and a 5 yo, I would think you might end up wanting to combine them when you hit Omnibus. The discussion will be better by grouping them. If they are more like 3 years apart, I don't know. But if they're two years apart, I'd absolutely consider combining them. You could do a year of american right now using MFW Adventures, which would be something you could do nicely with your 5 and 7 yo's. Then start a 4 year history cycle with them in 3rd and 2nd. You could either use VP and combine OTAE and NTGR into one year (not hard, schedules at VP_Elementary yahoo group) or continue in MFW or use SOTW or whatever you like. Then when they are in 7th and 6th do your SL5/MFW ECC/Around the World in 180 Days/whatever you like bangup geography/missions emphasis. When your oldest two are 8th and 7th start Omnibus. At that point your youngers can all start their history cycle too (year 1 using whatever you like). So everyone is together on the same page and you're still getting to Omnibus.

Who knows, you may get there and realize you don't even want Omnibus. If you do MFW until then, you may like just continuing with it. If you have a sense of where you're going (american this year, ancients the next, that sort of thing), then you can fill in the program that makes the most sense THAT YEAR. Given the number of kids you have (and the likelihood of more?), I'd definitely think with an eye to combining. Don't knock yourself out one year teaching some complex program that could have been done together with two or three by waiting a year. Use some of these bridge programs like MFW Adventures, etc.

#100 frankcassiesmom

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 02:31 PM

1. TOG is very teacher intensive as far as planning, so if you aren't a planner, I would choose something different.


I am the least planning person out there and TOG works great for me. I don't find TOG teacher planning intensive at all really. So don't let that scare you. Because honestly, I am the least organized person ever and can make TOG work.


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