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Veritas Press (VP) or Tapestry of Grace (TOG)

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#1 Honey Bee

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:13 AM

I've got to flesh this out...we are starting with Ancients next year, so I'm going to go with TOG or Veritas History/Bible. I assumed we would go with VP because my husband adores Omnibus (ok, so do I :D), but really like TOG too. I can think of a few differences:


  • VP has a 5 year history cycle and TOG has 4 years
  • VP has two levels 2-4th grade and about 4th-6 grade, while TOG has 4 levels inside each year. I think TOG would be much better to suit the different grade levels and move them up at small increments.
  • VP and TOG both have great book lists. VP has less books, but they seem to be the creme of the crop books. TOG is harder to tell because there are so many books, I know they are all great though.
  • I want to teach character and the Bible, VP (when combined with VP Bible) seems to be a clear winner here by going systematically though the Bible. I know TOG has some Bible, especially in Ancients, but not sure how that translates in other years, its hard to tell by looking at the website.
  • TOG is 36 weeks for 4 year cycle = 144 topics
  • VP is 32 weeks for 5 year cycle = 160 topics
  • VP spends 2 years on Ancient Civ, Y1 for Egypt and Y2 for Greek and Roman. I don't see where they cover Ancient China, India, etc. One option would be to combine them with SOTW to get those topics. I know TOG covers these.
  • TOG is weighted to cover the last 100 years in 1 year. In other words, it covers Ancients in 1 year and spends more and more time as we get closer to present time.
  • TOG "worksheets" are directly related to the books they are reading and are made for a certain level, Lower grammar, upper grammer, etc. VP seems to use the same format of comprehension questions and projects 2nd grade-6th grade (and then we throw them into Omnibus--Ouch :scared:).
  • VP does have Scholars Online so you can throw them in it if you get bogged down.
  • I haven't seen the teachers manuals for VP, but I know that TOG has wonderful teacher notes and info.
Well these are the random thoughts and such that have been swishing around my head the last few months. Forgive me if they come out all in a ramble. Correct me if I have gotten something wrong, etc.

Any thoughts? My main concern is worldview. I want to train my children's hearts and teach them the wisdom and knowledge to be gained from history.

This is a big decision for me because either way is a big time commitment. I'm hoping some of you have been their done that and can give me some wisdom...

#2 jananc

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:26 AM

I haven't used or seen VP so I can't help with a comparison, but I did want to comment on a couple of your points. also, I'm in the D and R levels, so that is what is most clear in my memory. We began TOG in UG, so I can't really speak to what is covered in LG. (and sorry I don't know how to multi quote!)

re: Bible & character: TOG covers the Bible systematically in the year 1 plan, covering almost the entire Bible (especially in D and R levels). I was very pleased with the amount of Bible my kids got. The remaining year plans do not cover Bible as a subject, but instead cover church history. Character is woven throughout the 4 year plans through the teacher notes and discussion scripts for D and R. There are scripture references scattered throughout with added notes on what the Bible would say about particular events and historical figures, and discussion questions that go over these. Our kids in co-op bring their Bibles with them to class because they know we'll be looking up scripture at least once each class.

re: comparing total number of topics, I wonder whether VP begins a year plan with a review week or 2 of previous years? TOG does incorporate review along with new material in the first week of each year plan, to help those who are new to the program.

re: your closing comment: My main concern is worldview. I want to train my children's hearts and teach them the wisdom and knowledge to be gained from history. This is exactly why I use & love TOG. The teacher notes are so rich with this, and it teaches my kids *and me* exactly what you say here. I know I could teach my kids history using a method like WTM, but I could never be wise enough to make connections between historical events/figures (from the ancients all the way through present day) and scripture. To me, these connections found in the teacher notes are the true value of the program.

Of course, I tell everyone that every family is different! You've got to find what works best for you, and I know VP is a great program too. I hope I've given you a little more to help you in your decision.

#3 woolybear

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:30 AM

My 01. cent here.:) (It's not worth more because I don't know either of the programs well enough.) BUT I have been falling in love with TOG over the last month. VP has wonderful books. I know nothing about Omnibus:001_huh:. I find a full year on Egypt a bit much and then a year on the Greeks and Romans....I would go with TOG and perhaps add a few of VP book choices in. I think what the previous poster said about worldview is so helpful. That is one of the things that really appeals to me about TOG. It appears to be so much more than just a booklist (as some curriculums are.) It's all those connections and insights that really add value to the program.

I'm sure either would be a good choice.
Woolybear

#4 Janice in NJ

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:42 AM

Melissa,

It looks like you have laid out the details of each program well. I don't think you have addressed the biggest piece of the puzzle though.

TOG will provide you with curriculum and teacher helps if you want to begin exploring rhetoric level great books curriculum on your own as you teach your kids. However, TOG's philosophy of education does not place history in the prominent position in the lower grammar years. The writers of the curriculum believe that the early years should focus on the 3 R's. That's your meal. History is your dessert. So you will have history and literature to read to your child every week. There are projects. And there are incremental writing assignments. (TOG's model is read, think, write.) You will not find umpteen "critical thinking" questions to go with the history. The literature is one picture book per week with a simple worksheet. A read aloud title is provided with no questions. The title is offered; you do with it what you wish. The weekly evaluations at the LG level are pretty basic - many of them are handled orally. TOG's educational model leaves you plenty of room to focus on the 3 R's in your face-time with your little ones.

VP will give you tons of things to do with your little ones. Lots. And lots. If you believe in a rigorous history curriculum in the lower grammar years, then I would suggest that you purchase a Teacher's Manual and compare it to the TOG 3-week sample. You will have a lot more teacher-specific guidance for say "2nd grade Greek history" with VP.

However, VP will not help you prepare to teach high-school ancient history. With TOG you can begin to read and study Homer's Odyssey on your own. You can read some Virgil. Plato's Republic will entice you. I have found that all of this takes time to understand. I'm teaching at the high school level. I began to self-educate when my oldest was in 5th grade; I wish that I had launched in this "stuff" earlier. :001_smile: What you need for your family may be different.

So while I appreciate your desire to understand the number of weeks in each program and all of the data that you listed, I think that you should consider broader goals.

All kids needs the 3R's when they are little. (IMO) That's a given.

I think you need to decide how you are going to spend any extra time that you have as the teacher. Do you and your husband believe that little ones need a big dose of history when they are little? Providing that will take up your time. It takes time to read teacher's manuals and plan/teach lessons. It just does. The alternative is that you would spend some of your time offering them a simple lesson on the week's topic and the bulk of your "history-available" time self-educating to teach middle-school and high-school level ancient history. Time spent there may indirectly make you a better teacher overall.

I think that is the bigger question that deserves your attention. :001_smile:

I used to think that I could do both well if I tried really hard. I've learned that I only get 24 no matter how well I use them. There are trade offs. No way around it.

I would recommend that you and your husband spend some time assessing your broader resources as a family. Are you planning to homeschool through high school? Are you planning to offer your kids a great books education? Are you prepared to offer them that? The choices that you make along the way will affect your ability to meet your goals with grace and peace. Those goals are different for each family. Talking about those goals and then choosing programs that meet those goals might be a better approach.

Peace,
Janice

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#5 dsacco

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:44 AM

Ok - we just started TOG Year 1. Starting next week (week 4 unit 1) the Bible is also used for History as well as "Bible Class"

I spent 3 hours reserving books from the library (our library is awesome - but their search function REALLY needs to be updated) and ordering from online sources (used etc). We are doing UG & D and so far my UG level kid LOVES the books. She gets up and starts reading the books before other stuff.

I LOVE the Teacher notes - I can handle both kids learning the exact same topics during the week - it is so helpful for me. I'm not sure if VP has the different grades running parallel - but this is huge. You should HEAR the topics at our dinner table some nights - personally I've had it with "mummy making" ;)

Now that I either have all the books or have them reserved, it takes me about 30-45 minutes per week to go through and put each weekly schedule together. This includes planning math, LA, etc. We do use Writing Aids - so I have to look that over as well and plan for that.

We aren't HUGE Ancient fans.... the kids think it's cool - but they are ready to start moving on to something other than Egypt so I'm not sure how they would feel if it was an entire year of Egypt KWIM?

Oh - we do add in the VP History cards (once I get around to laminating them) so you CAN mix some of that in there as well...

#6 OhElizabeth

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:57 AM

Melissa, as Janice said, I think you're seeing the mathematics and missing the point. :) I've used VP from the beginning, thought about TOG quite a bit. Functionally, VP is one topic from everyone, multiple levels of assignments. It's not two levels but ALL levels (through 6th). You have everyone together on one card, one topic, all reading and doing stuff at their levels. I'm not sure where Janice is coming from with rigorous and rich. It's actually sort of middle of the road. There's a worksheet to go with each card, more worksheets that might have them narrating the card or doing something pertinent with the facts, a few crafts, and some included literature studies. VP's going is to get them through the basic survey of history and have them come out knowing it. TOG, with its levels, has everyone on the same timeframe, but they aren't necessarily learning the same things. Someone who has used it could explain better, but the way someone told me, the lowest level might cover a couple biographies from the time period, where the highest level would be delving into the WHY'S of the time period. Your 5, 6, 7 yo's most likely aren't going to get into the why's or care, sorry. Anything you want them to learn from history at this age as far as faith, motives, reasons, providence, etc. are probably obvious enough that you'll see them doing VP. In other words, it's the upper levels of TOG that get to be what you're wanting, and 5 yo's don't do that. :)

Some more differences. VP has wonderful, wonderful online, self-paced classes for the history now that you really want to consider. As you say, the integration of their Bible curriculum with the history is another important feature. Third, it's setting you up well for Omnibus. Four, it's easier to plan. Let's just say VP is streamlined TOG, or rather TOG is VP on steroids. LOL. Do you really NEED all that extra in TOG with a 5 yo? Do you really want to sort through all that just to teach a 5 yo?? The simplicity of VP in that sense is perfect for the age. And finally, VP focuses on european/western history (no outside cultures the way SOTW does) and does only american, not integrating world. Now if that bugs you, you can always use SOTW alongside or during the summer to fill in a few things. I think it's nice though to focus like that. There's a sense in which the coverage pace of a program meant for older kids and the way they select what to cover when might not be what you'd chose if you had just youngers. With just youngers the age of yours, I'd ABSOLUTELY go VP. Don't even blink twice, just do it! If you get into it and realize in a few years you want to step up to TOG, you could, no problem. But right now, with the ages you have, VP is the simpler way to get in, get the job done, and stay focused on skills. VP bends over backward to give you opportunities to apply your budding writing and reading skills.

#7 OhElizabeth

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:58 AM

The entire year of Egypt is AWESOME and done in an age-appropriate way. I don't even like history and I liked it. Half the cards are Bible cards in that deck. It's an age where most kids are still improving their reading skills, learning to write narrations or answers to questions, etc., so you don't need more history than that. It works out great.

#8 mrsrevmeg

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:19 AM

I really liked a lot of what I saw in the VP catalogs. I also like a hands-on curriculum that I saw (and bought). I feel like TOG is the perfect blend. There are so many hands-on things offered, but it also has the rigorous academics. I like that our family is all on the same topic. They get really tickled when they see some the same pictures in each other's books. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the fact that I am able to learn along the way and be prepared for when high school rolls around. I was not classically educated. This is the first time I am learning some of the things I am teaching. So I really love TOG's teacher notes that are helping me along the way.

#9 TracyP

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:08 AM

I can't compare (never having seen VP) but I think the PP who said to look at long term goals is right on. If your plan is to go with Omnibus then TOG just used for little kids would pointless - IMO. If you like the looks of TOG for your high school students then getting familiar with it now makes sense. I love it and I love how much *I* am getting from it. The truth is that right now TOG is mostly just a booklist and schedule for me. I am okay with that because I know that is where I am heading long term. If you are willing to see it that way it is so simple to use. If TOG seems like "too much" for a 7 year old it is not being used the way it was intended. As said before the meatiness of the program is with dialectic and rhetoric students.

Any thoughts? My main concern is worldview. I want to train my children's hearts and teach them the wisdom and knowledge to be gained from history.

This is why I chose TOG.:001_smile:

Edited by TracyP, 04 March 2010 - 09:12 AM.


#10 abrightmom

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:38 AM

This is a very helpful, enlightening comparison!

OhE, do you use some sort of plan to implement VP? I'm not positive but I think their plan is called Scholars (maybe Scholars is their plan for utilizing all of their curriculum options which wouldn't work if it was simply the history/Bible one wanted, right?).

Anyway, for day to day implementation of VP what do you use? Do you think that VP Bible/History is easy enough to teach to different ages/learning levels at the same time??

How did you deal with VP's omission of other ancient civilizations? Honestly, I'm not sure I understand why they did that or why it matters! :) Does it matter and did you teach that on the side?

Are you planning on using the Omnibus? Does TOG appeal to you for the logic/rhetoric stages?

Thanks!

#11 jewel7123

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 10:50 AM

Functionally, VP is one topic from everyone, multiple levels of assignments. It's not two levels but ALL levels (through 6th). You have everyone together on one card, one topic, all reading and doing stuff at their levels.

As you say, the integration of their Bible curriculum with the history is another important feature. Third, it's setting you up well for Omnibus. Four, it's easier to plan. Let's just say VP is streamlined TOG, or rather TOG is VP on steroids.


I've been to the VP website, and It's very confusing, and I don't see it mentioned anywhere that VP has everyone together on one topic but at their level like TOG? What am I missing?

#12 SilverMoon

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 11:40 AM

I've been to the VP website, and It's very confusing, and I don't see it mentioned anywhere that VP has everyone together on one topic but at their level like TOG? What am I missing?

They are split up by grade on the VP website, but the history kits are designed to teach everyone in grades 2 through 6. I've found it easy enough to stretch it a bit on each side of that guideline. My older two can be filling out a VP workpage while my first grader does a fill-in-the-blanks page using the back of the card as his guide. The big two could have a picture study page that expects them to write a good paragraph, while the little guy has a picture to color. Once in awhile they all get the same page, like the mock newspaper article. The first grader squeaked out two basic narration sentences on his (with me helping every step of the way). The next kid up did a few sentences and wrote a caption for the picture. The oldest filled the page up with a good article.

Fwiw, we combine the first two history kits into one year, running over into the summer, then starting the third history set by fall (roughly). I prefer the four year rotation so we make it work for us. :001_smile:

We combine SOTW and WTM writing with VP history. VP is the "spine" and the other two are used as they line up with VP. I don't use Scholars. We start out with the card, introduce the story, hand out the applicable VP pages according to skill level, and assign the reading according to skill level (WTM writing attached to those). We don't use their Bible, but I do incorporate their literature suggestions for the same year.


We do intend to go with Omnibus. Our plan was for Justice to begin it this year, but he's had a rough year overall (darn tween hormones hijacking his brain...) and we've decided to hold off one more year. I'll keep him in history as explained above, and beef up the literature aspect of it.

I disagree with an earlier comment that VP doesn't prepare for harder history in the higher grades. I suppose if you only did the bare bones it might not. They do expect you'll do two years of Omnibus before high school anyway, which would certainly have a child ready. I don't find it too rigorous for little ones either. My first grader has been along for the ride this year and loves it. I obviously don't do everything in the history curriculum with him, his portion is gentle and just right for him. I can't see that he does anything tougher than my oldest did with just SOTW in first grade. Little ds has the cards memorized, can give a fairly good account of most of the stories, and can tell you what each of his crafts are about. His gateway to Karnak is still a regular on his Hot Wheels playsets. :001_smile:

#13 Janice in NJ

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 11:57 AM

I would also add an additional disclaimer. I have tried to be a diligent homeschooler. I've tried to provide a rigorous education for my kids.

None of my kids were ready to handle all of the books listed in the VP curriculum as it moved into 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade. (Forget using Omnibus with my oldest 7th grade son. BAD idea. Bad! And I tried. And stressed because he couldn't do it. NOR could I!!! I had NOTHING to say about those books when my oldest was in 7th grade. Yes, I could read the TE, but I couldn't teach those books. Wake up call for me! Huge wake up call!) When my oldest was in grades 3-6, I used to read the VP catalog and stress over it. I had a lot of the books. I wanted to provide a rigorous experience so I tried to use the books to educate. I believe that kids need to be stretched in order to learn, but the stretch was too much. I wasted a ton of time trying to figure out how to use the materials to educate my kids. Looking back, I can clearly label it an unnecessary stress (for me).

The debate continues with the experts about rigorous education. I will leave it to them to decide what is best for the masses.

What worked for me? Age-appropriate curriculum for my kids in history and science grew my kids; rigor was needed for my self-education. I grew the most when I pushed ME to struggle, struggle, struggle to understand things that made NO sense to me. Our homeschool grew the most when I was drowning yet struggling to breathe - when I was trying to get MY nose above the water line in order to comprehend.

Those experiences pay rich, rich dividends in this house every single day. In every single subject!

Little ones need to struggle to understand the 3R's well. History, literature, and science are for practicing those skills. Long term it was best for our homeschool when I placed the demand for rigor in the content areas on MY shoulders. Among many other things on my plate this week, I just finished a run through Alice in Wonderland again; I'll be working through some of it with my 7th grader. It should be an interesting discussion; he has the experience to enjoy the book on several levels. According to the curriculum that I am using (TOG), he is supposed to read Through the Looking Glass - TTLG. I've decided not to teach the book; he's going to start The Fellowship of the Ring instead. Apart from the chess game, I can't find anything in TTLG that I want to chat about with my 7th grade boy. I've challenged myself to work through Finnegan's Wake; maybe then I'll have something to say about TTLG. Honestly? I'm afraid of Mr. Joyce. I don't want to read any Joyce. I'm sure that I won't like it. ...but I might. So as soon as I have the time, I will. I'm sure that it will grow me. Can I read the book? maybe. But I'm not sure that I can "read" the book. I have no way of knowing whether or not I'm ready to read it. Is it rigorous? Sure; that's what I've heard. ;) Necessary for me at this minute? Not right this minute. I'm sure of that. But maybe for later. There's no rush. The longer I wait, the more I will bring to the book. Experience has taught me that. :001_smile:

For me rigor was a loose ideal when I began homeschooling. I allowed others to define it for me. I allowed others to tell me what it should look like. Eleven years of hard, hard work has propelled me toward a shift in thinking. I've learned to trust in my definition of rigor. Reading the great books, thinking about them, and listening to what others have to say about them has helped me to formulate my definition of rigor for this group of little people. Very valuable! I would heartily recommend that you explore some of the goals that you have for your kids as concretely as you can as soon as you can. Rather than allow others to choose trajectories for my arrows, it has helped me to jog over to the target and look at it a bit. Is this something I even want? If so, am I willing to pay the price to get it? (For me, the price was always higher than I thought. :001_smile: It just was. :001_smile:)

But just so you know: none of my kids could have handled the VP curriculum as written for grades 3 - 8 at the level that I deem necessary in order to educate. I couldn't get past that. Now I know that I didn't need to. I would have been covering the curriculum; I would not have been educating my kids.

I'm sure there are others who love it. Their kids are thriving in elem, jr. high, and high school with the curriculum. I hope they will chime in so you can see if your goals and experience line up with theirs.

Peace,
Janice

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#14 abrightmom

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:32 PM

Moon,

Your explanations are helpful! What are you referring to when you say "history kits" and "VP workpages"? Are those a part of a teacher's manual?

#15 abrightmom

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:58 PM

Janice,

Your entire post was VERY insightful! You have challenged my thinking and struck a chord . . . I have been grappling a lot with these issues.

Quote (I still can't figure out how to do that cool quote thing so here's an old fashioned copy/paste):
"But just so you know: none of my kids could have handled the VP curriculum as written for grades 3 - 8 at the level that I deem necessary in order to educate. I couldn't get past that. Now I know that I didn't need to. I would have been covering the curriculum; I would not have been educating my kids."

Would you be willing to elaborate with some specifics? What were some of the aspects of VP that would have been too much for your kiddos - book levels, amount of work, etc.? What do you deem necessary to educate? I'm so interested to hear more . . . PLEASE share! :)

#16 SilverMoon

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:04 PM

Moon,

Your explanations are helpful! What are you referring to when you say "history kits" and "VP workpages"? Are those a part of a teacher's manual?


When I buy just the history I buy the "homeschool kit," though that may just be now Rainbow Resource lists it. That includes the TG, songs and cards. You can choose to have a book TG or get the TG on a disk. The VP workpages mentioned above came from the history TG. :) There are a few options for pages in the TG for you to choose from for each card. None of my kids do all of them. None of them do all the reading either. We pick and choose what's best for each kid.

#17 OhElizabeth

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:23 PM

Katrina, my experience has been the total opposite of Janice's. We use the VP recs a year ahead typically. I have no concerns over my dd being ready to do Omnibus in 7th. Kids are just all different. I think Janice may have been referring to the overall academic recommendations in the VP catalog, including the lit selections for each grade, grammar, spelling, etc. The history is INCREDIBLY EASY to tailor to your dc's level and no different from TOG in that sense. If your dc reads at a lower level, you do the same topics but with an easier spine. (The cards list several, and there are charts on the yahoo groups with more schedules.) If the lit selections are too hard, you read them aloud together. If the writing is too hard, you break it down. It's MEANT to be customized to their level. That's why, in your situation, with several kids very close, VP would be so easy.

Yes I plan to do Omnibus. I forget all your questions and am out of time anyway, have to prep for a class. I think SilverMoon gave you an awesome sense of how flexible it is and how you could make the same topic work for multiple kids. There are no rights and wrongs with the VP stuff. If you want to do it as they say, including all the worksheets and stuff, cool. If you want to drop those and just use the cards as a spine and do lapbooking or notebooking or written narrations, cool. Sometimes we've been really structured, and sometimes it has resembled unschooling more than anything. My dd is a serious history buff, so I often would just give her a pile of books on the card for the week and let her read. She loves hands-on stuff, so I made room for that. I say have fun with it and cater to your kids' interests in that respect. VP is such a flexible spine, you can make it fit them, with the things they like to do, the way they like to learn, and the skills they need to practice.

PS. Don't underestimate the online, self-paced classes! I'll definitely consider them for my ds when his time comes. Can't think of anything easier on mom. That leaves you free to focus on addingfun books, hands-on, etc. :)

#18 dsacco

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:27 PM

Do you all who use VP use the memory songs? My dd (4th grade level) looked at me like I was NUTS when I played one.... I'm just not sure how that would work with some kids or do you just skip the whole "song" thing?

Just curious ;)

#19 abrightmom

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:37 PM

We are not users . . . just looking . . . . we sampled VP's online history course which includes the songs. My musical DH freaked out (didn't like them) but my kids LOVED them and were singing along the second time through. I have to confess that I was too . . . :D Perhaps the ages and temperaments of your DC will decide that for you!!! My littles ones love learning things set to music. It's crazy!

#20 Pylegang

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:57 PM

I've been using Veritas Press materials for three years (although not always exclusively). Right now, we're adding in SOTW to provide a narrative. Here's what we do:
  • Monday: I read the Veritas Press history card aloud, stopping to explain any difficult words or concepts to my children. We discuss and answer the worksheet questions that are part of TM for each card. Most of the time we do this in writing, but when we're pressed for time we answer the quesitons orally. We usually look at the encyclopedia reference that is listed on the back of the card on this day.
  • Tuesday: One of my children reads the Veritas Press history card aloud and then we pull out a resource listed on the back of the card to get more detail on the topic. Next, we do mapwork.
  • Wednesday: One of my children reads the Veritas Press history card aloud and then we pull out a different resource listed on the back of the card to learn even more about the topic. This is the day we work on a fun project for hands on learning or do a notebooking page!
  • Thursday: I read the Veritas Press history card aloud, then I read it aloud a second time, leaving out key words and phrases for them to shout out as I read. They almost always know the missing words! Thursday is our timeline day. We get out our timeline notebooks and add the event to our timeline. We use resources from Homeschool in the Woods. (FYI--The Scholars lesson plans includes timeline instructions.)
In addition, we usually have a historical read aloud going. Sometimes we do writing assignments about the book (3 or 4 reading/writing units are usually in the TM), sometimes we just read.

We only do history four days per week because we attend Classical Conversations on Fridays. One of the things we do in Classical Conversations is memorize all 160 Veritas Press History Cards. We don't use the VP history memory song because we memorize the cards in a slightly different order than VP. (Although, if we didn't do CC, we'd probably use the song!) We begin our year with CC memorizing 8 of the history cards and then we add an additional 8 cards each week. By the 20th week of the Classical Conversations program, we've gone through all 160 cards. Usually once or twice a week, we begin our history time by reciting the history cards. Sometimes we'll even play a game to make this part of our studies more fun.

My children are both in the grammar stage and I have found that this routine truly helps my boys to remember what they've learned. That's one of my goals: to fill their minds with all kinds of facts and to read books of every kind to them during these young years. I have floundered between many different things in the world of history, and this plan is the most fun and successful for us. History usually gets done!!

#21 SilverMoon

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:20 PM

Do you all who use VP use the memory songs? My dd (4th grade level) looked at me like I was NUTS when I played one.... I'm just not sure how that would work with some kids or do you just skip the whole "song" thing?

Just curious ;)


Two of my kids love the songs, another does this: :001_rolleyes:. All of them can say the names of the cards in order without the song, and the latter kid just sits out when one of the others wants to hear the song.

#22 Honey Bee

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:46 PM

Thanks for your patience ladies, I was "teaching" this morning :D. I've just printed everything out and will reply soon...

I am really glad the conversation has turned towards Veritas. I was very heavily leaning towards them. It is all being cemented for me right now.

#23 Heather in VA

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:51 PM

Melissa,



However, VP will not help you prepare to teach high-school ancient history. With TOG you can begin to read and study Homer's Odyssey on your own. You can read some Virgil. Plato's Republic will entice you. I have found that all of this takes time to understand. I'm teaching at the high school level. I began to self-educate when my oldest was in 5th grade; I wish that I had launched in this "stuff" earlier. :001_smile: What you need for your family may be different.


I don't really think this is true at all. I have a daughter using Omnibus and the book and TM is excellent in providing the information needed to teach these books. I didn't feel the need to study years beforehand to get it done. I was not completely ignorant of the classics prior to homeschooling but it's been such a long time since I'd done anything academic myself I know I am not relying on my previous education. I have not had any trouble teaching Omnibus, either when I used it partially or when I've used it as our full program. If I felt I needed to study for high school starting in the 5th grade, I'd probably find something else to use.

Heather

#24 Heather in VA

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:56 PM

Do you all who use VP use the memory songs? My dd (4th grade level) looked at me like I was NUTS when I played one.... I'm just not sure how that would work with some kids or do you just skip the whole "song" thing?

Just curious ;)


In my opinion skipping the "song" thing is a bad idea. You don't have to sing it, but the song itself has additional information that helps them learn information rather than just the order (which is important too). VP considers the information on the back of the card, the Bible reference for Biblical events, and the order of the cards to be the focus of what they learn. Many who just put the cards in order end up missing the information. But I wouldn't force them to sing if they don't like that. My kids happen to love it but I know my oldest, who didn't do VP elementary, probably would have preferred memorizing the information in non-song form.

Heather

#25 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:53 PM

Thank you for this thread, HoneyBee!
And thank you for the replies about VP...it's been very helpful! Since the thread has dropped off, I'm wondering if I could jump in and ask a few (hopefully relevant-to-the-discussion-) questions?

I've been on the four-year cycle the last two years with my dd8. We've dabbled in TOG (using SOTW as our spine) with an eye on using it all the way through. I love the *idea* of a chronological four-year cycle, but the last two years covering ancients and now the middle ages has my head spinning! I'm a big fan of LCC and I guess I feel like our history is doing the opposite--covering many not much. I know that the grammar stage will be much different than dialectic & rhetoric, but I still feel like we're in a whirlwind of time, covering three different stories a week (in SOTW) without any focus or grounding. I'm wondering how much of it my dd is retaining. I'm not expecting her to remember names, dates, or other specifics, but I still question whether a *strict* chronological program where we're skipping from one civilization to another every week (like in SOTW and TOG) is contributing to my feeling of disjointedness. I always feel like I'm behind!!

I've been planning on moving over to VP for this reason. For you VP people, am I right in my thinking that with VP I would be covering 32 events, and add in as little or as much extras as I want? That with VP it is chronological but not *strictly* so, so that it stays with one civilization for a time? My dd *loves* history and spends much of her free time listening to historical audiobooks (SOTW, Your Story Hour, Jim Weiss, myths, etc...) and poring over our world history encyclopedias. I'm thinking that if she could get 32 solid "pegs" each year then she could fill in around those big (mostly western?) events with her outside reading/listening. She would still be getting the flow of history via SOTW audio or CHOW read-aloud at tea time and the like, but we would focus on the big events. Is my thinking sound? Would moving to VP help solve my "many not much" feeling?

(Not to mention in comparing my TOG Yr 1 to the Omnibus samples, I fell in love with Omni...:001_unsure:)

#26 abrightmom

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:56 PM

:bigear: Very interested to hear replies to mommahawk's questions . . .

#27 woolybear

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:56 PM

Thank you all for this thread. This has been so helpful and enlightening. Off to check out Veritas Press.......again......;)

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#28 mom2maddie

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:26 PM

We switched to VP for history and Bible when MOH wasn't cutting it for us anymore. I/we love it! Especially the 32 cards and memory songs. She has memorized the whole chronology by learning the songs. We do all the activities, extra lit and projects assigned in Scholars, but what I love about it is if all I had time for each week was the card and the worksheet, I would feel like she is getting a good "'peg" to hang her history hat on. I also love that I only had to buy a few spines to add in and the rest of the books are supplementary in my opinion, so we look through the catalog and pick up what we can from the library. The focus to me here in the grammar stage is memorizing the chronology and the facts and this program accomplishes that.

We are not going to continue though with Omnibus, it doesn't appeal to me. We are thinking of switching to TOG for Jr. High/High School History, but we will never leave VP for the grammar years.

Also, you can access some talks by Laurie D. on how to use VP at home on www.wordmp3.com and some are free. She clearly recommends that you teach only one history and Bible to all of your grammar age kids.

#29 jewel7123

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:33 PM

Ok, I'm still confused on how VP works and what you need exactly....(cards, Teacher's guide, etc?) but I am definitely intrigued. My children are all roughly 2 years apart and I definitely want to keep them together doing the same history time period. If I can accomplish that with VP and it's also Biblically based, uses living books, offers hands on projects, etc. then I am most definitely interested!

#30 delaney

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:37 PM

I haven't used either but choke on the price of TOG since history is, for me, an extra. I plan on using HO and pull out the crafty stuff that supports the CC study of the Middle Ages. We will have our hands full with the memory work from CC I think!

#31 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:38 PM

We switched to VP for history and Bible when MOH wasn't cutting it for us anymore. I/we love it! Especially the 32 cards and memory songs. She has memorized the whole chronology by learning the songs. We do all the activities, extra lit and projects assigned in Scholars, but what I love about it is if all I had time for each week was the card and the worksheet, I would feel like she is getting a good "'peg" to hang her history hat on. I also love that I only had to buy a few spines to add in and the rest of the books are supplementary in my opinion, so we look through the catalog and pick up what we can from the library. The focus to me here in the grammar stage is memorizing the chronology and the facts and this program accomplishes that.


Thank you for this. The first part that I bolded is exactly what I think I need in a history program for the youngers. The second part is what I've realized the goals for our grammar stage history should be (along with filling her head with lots of stories) over the last year. Thanks for your thoughts! :)

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:43 PM

This conversation has also intrigued me. I feel like the website is confusing. I never realized that you could use this with multiple grade levels. I like what I see of the samples. We want to do ancients next year but I'll have a 6th grader then. I don't think I'm interested in Omnibus. Do you think these elementary levels could be "beefed up" for my 11 year old, so that I could keep my children together in the next few years?

#33 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:58 PM

:seeya: Kelli! I'm sorry you haven't gotten all this figured out yet! It's crazy, huh? :tongue_smilie:

#34 Guest_aquiverfull_*

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:05 PM

Hi Heather!! :seeya: Yes it's insane..lol.

I sent ya an email. :)

#35 SilverMoon

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:32 PM

I've been planning on moving over to VP for this reason. For you VP people, am I right in my thinking that with VP I would be covering 32 events, and add in as little or as much extras as I want? That with VP it is chronological but not *strictly* so, so that it stays with one civilization for a time? My dd *loves* history and spends much of her free time listening to historical audiobooks (SOTW, Your Story Hour, Jim Weiss, myths, etc...) and poring over our world history encyclopedias. I'm thinking that if she could get 32 solid "pegs" each year then she could fill in around those big (mostly western?) events with her outside reading/listening. She would still be getting the flow of history via SOTW audio or CHOW read-aloud at tea time and the like, but we would focus on the big events. Is my thinking sound? Would moving to VP help solve my "many not much" feeling?

(Not to mention in comparing my TOG Yr 1 to the Omnibus samples, I fell in love with Omni...:001_unsure:)


You've got VP nailed in your descriptions. :001_smile:

Ok, I'm still confused on how VP works and what you need exactly....(cards, Teacher's guide, etc?) but I am definitely intrigued. My children are all roughly 2 years apart and I definitely want to keep them together doing the same history time period. If I can accomplish that with VP and it's also Biblically based, uses living books, offers hands on projects, etc. then I am most definitely interested!


You need the TG and cards, and probably the songs too. Rainbow Resource calls all of these together the "homeschool kit." Past that you'll want to purchase the most used spines and a few of the other books, or make sure your library has them. You can find an exact list of which books are used for which history set, the book's priority and frequency of use on the VP site. From the main www.veritaspress.com page click on resources in the menu across the top. From there go to downloads. Scroll way down until you find the resources for the history kit you want.

This conversation has also intrigued me. I feel like the website is confusing. I never realized that you could use this with multiple grade levels. I like what I see of the samples. We want to do ancients next year but I'll have a 6th grader then. I don't think I'm interested in Omnibus. Do you think these elementary levels could be "beefed up" for my 11 year old, so that I could keep my children together in the next few years?


VP is made for going through sixth grade so he should be fine. It's easy to stretch a smidgeon past that too, IMO. Mostly you'll want to assign more literature and WTM-ish writing. To find the extra literature VP suggests for that time period go to the VP site, find the grade that has that history kit listed, and go to the literature section of that grade. The WTM literature suggestions for each history period also mesh well.

Omnibus doesn't start until 7th.

#36 cajun.classical

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:35 PM

This conversation has also intrigued me. I feel like the website is confusing. I never realized that you could use this with multiple grade levels. I like what I see of the samples. We want to do ancients next year but I'll have a 6th grader then. I don't think I'm interested in Omnibus. Do you think these elementary levels could be "beefed up" for my 11 year old, so that I could keep my children together in the next few years?

I just got a sample of the VP Scholar's Lesson Plans for the Middle Ages course and I am blown away. How can I describe this? History, Literature, Writing all integrated; all scripted; all done for me. These are way more than lesson plans and I am so glad I requested a sample week. I was thinking this was a planning schedule. No way.

The sample week they sent me has background info on the historical time period and introductory material for the card, instructions on how to use all the resources (like Point to this map on page x of Kingfisher while saying this.), very specific instructions, 2 levels of assignments for upper and lower elementary, projects, writing assignments--including some cool assignments reading primary sources of the church fathers. The literature is scheduled each day and has discussion questions and answers. I love this!

I am planning to use this with my 6th grader next year and I will not have to beef it up at all. It will be a challenging year of reading and writing by itself. In fact, I'm going to use some of the writing assignments with my 8th grader in Omnibus 2.

I have used VP in the past and always thought I just must not be getting how to make this work. Now that I've seen the scholar's lesson plans, I get how this is supposed to look. What a great program.

I would contact VP and ask for a sample week. You can purchase the history lesson plans separately--I think it also includes Bible. I initially thought the $49 was high, but after seeing the sample, I think it is reasonably priced--you are getting history, Bible, literature, and writing all in there--for 2 levels of students.

#37 OhElizabeth

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:51 PM

This conversation has also intrigued me. I feel like the website is confusing. I never realized that you could use this with multiple grade levels. I like what I see of the samples. We want to do ancients next year but I'll have a 6th grader then. I don't think I'm interested in Omnibus. Do you think these elementary levels could be "beefed up" for my 11 year old, so that I could keep my children together in the next few years?


Or, if you've already been through history once, you might do a year of something a la SL core 5 and come back to VP for Omnibus in 7th. I lot of maturing is going to happen between now and 7th, and that great books study might suddenly look very age-appropriate. I actually started the VP history a year early so we could have 6th grade to do just this.

#38 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:58 PM

I would contact VP and ask for a sample week. You can purchase the history lesson plans separately--I think it also includes Bible. I initially thought the $49 was high, but after seeing the sample, I think it is reasonably priced--you are getting history, Bible, literature, and writing all in there--for 2 levels of students.


I didn't realize you could get the history plans separately! I'm having a hard time figuring things out from their website. In order to get the history plans without the rest, do you have to call them? In fact, can you even buy the lesson plans online?

Also, are the Scholar's plans different from the teacher's guide in that it integrates the other subjects that you mentioned--Bible, literature and writing--whereas the history teacher's guide only deals with history, and the Bible TG only with Bible? I assume you still need the TG for Bible and History even if you go with the Scholar's lesson plans.

Sorry if I seem like a dolt; I'm not sure why I'm having such a hard time wrapping my brain around the way this program works! I wish their catalog and website were more user-friendly because then I might have just gone with them two years ago when I was so drawn to their book selections!

#39 cajun.classical

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:12 PM

I didn't realize you could get the history plans separately! I'm having a hard time figuring things out from their website. In order to get the history plans without the rest, do you have to call them? In fact, can you even buy the lesson plans online?

Yes, it is confusing. And yes, you have to call them. I emailed and asked for a sample week.

The Scholars lesson plans script out the whole thing for you. You still need the TM and the cards and the books. The lesson plans walk you through everything and plan out every little detail for you, including telling you which timeline figure to put where.

To see exactly what materials the lesson plans coordinate, go to the website, click on Scripted lesson plans, type in your child's name and grade. A screen comes up and then chose which history time period you want. Then click on which level you want--upper and lower-- and you will see a list of every book, timeline, map, etc that is scheduled. You will also need to click on the One Time Resource Pack to see the rest of the materials that are scheduled: kingfisher, CHOW, etc.

The lesson plans include plans for both upper and lower levels.

Again I think after seeing a sample week, things will click. I asked tons of questions and still didn't get it until I saw the sample. I kept thinking, couldn't I just schedule these books myself...

Did I answer your question?

I'm learning after 8 years of homeschooling that just because I *can* do it doesn't mean I should or that someone else couldn't do it better. The teachers who have put together these lessons have taught these classes for years and I am benefiting from their experience.


oh and I forgot to mention Geography is in there too. So, history, Bible, writing, literature, and geography.

Edited by cajun.classical, 04 March 2010 - 09:20 PM.


#40 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:35 PM

Angelina,

Thank you! That is very helpful. I like that I can see which things are actually scheduled. I'll probably just call them tomorrow and see if I can get it all figured out! This is sounding like it will be just what I was looking for! I mean, if someone can tell me exactly where and when to put on a timeline figure, how much better can it get?!? :lol:

Kelli,
Weren't you wanting to use IEW? It looks like IEW is the scheduled writing in the lesson plans...

#41 cajun.classical

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:42 PM

Angelina,

Thank you! That is very helpful. I like that I can see which things are actually scheduled. I'll probably just call them tomorrow and see if I can get it all figured out! This is sounding like it will be just what I was looking for! I mean, if someone can tell me exactly where and when to put on a timeline figure, how much better can it get?!? :lol:

Kelli,
Weren't you wanting to use IEW? It looks like IEW is the scheduled writing in the lesson plans...


LOL about the timeline. It's always these little things that I forget to do! And yes, the writing is IEW.

One thing I want to clarify. The literature that is in the history plans in what VP calls historical fiction. Their "literature" course which covers classic children's lit is a separate course. However, the history for MARR for example schedules Beowulf and Robin Hood among others. I consider that literature. I will however add some classic lit titles to be read more LCC-style, i.e. independently.

#42 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:44 PM

Or, if you've already been through history once, you might do a year of something a la SL core 5 and come back to VP for Omnibus in 7th. I lot of maturing is going to happen between now and 7th, and that great books study might suddenly look very age-appropriate. I actually started the VP history a year early so we could have 6th grade to do just this.


I actually love this idea...(it doesn't fit my situation right now, but if it did, I would so do this :D...hmmm...how can I make this work? :lol:). I don't personally know anything about SL 5, but from a cursory reading of the SL Forums it looks like Core 5 would give a dc the eastern cultures that isn't directly studied in VP as well as learning research skills that would help prepare for Omnibus? Was that your thinking, OhE?

#43 SophiaH

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:56 PM

One thing I want to clarify. The literature that is in the history plans in what VP calls historical fiction. Their "literature" course which covers classic children's lit is a separate course. However, the history for MARR for example schedules Beowulf and Robin Hood among others. I consider that literature. I will however add some classic lit titles to be read more LCC-style, i.e. independently.


Thank you for this information...this is a little off-topic, but have you done any of VPs lit guides? Or do you know how they compare with the MP lit guides? I know you use some MP products and I had thought about possibly using the MP 3rd grade selections with their lit guides (The Moffats, Charlotte's Web, Farmer Boy). I haven't quite decided on that yet, because I'm just not sure how I feel about lit guides for this age group anyway. DD will be reading through some of the Artner's Guide selections in Units 1 & 2 next year for her scheduled reading time. So, my other choice would be to just have her write a few narrations on the Artner's selections and/or some of the VP selections like you mentioned above...Anyone else have thoughts on this?

#44 cajun.classical

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 11:36 PM

Thank you for this information...this is a little off-topic, but have you done any of VPs lit guides? Or do you know how they compare with the MP lit guides? I know you use some MP products and I had thought about possibly using the MP 3rd grade selections with their lit guides (The Moffats, Charlotte's Web, Farmer Boy). I haven't quite decided on that yet, because I'm just not sure how I feel about lit guides for this age group anyway. DD will be reading through some of the Artner's Guide selections in Units 1 & 2 next year for her scheduled reading time. So, my other choice would be to just have her write a few narrations on the Artner's selections and/or some of the VP selections like you mentioned above...Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I'm really curious about the MP products as well. I just love everything they do.

I have used the VP guides and they are reading comprehension and hands-on activities. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it's necessary for my goals at this time. I think I'm better off informally discussing and using narration with literature. But I am curious about the MP guides. They seem to be trying to do something different. They are also covering far fewer books in greater depth, so I would consider those.

I started off using VP as written years ago and burned myself out bad. It's just too much...everything. Now that I am more LCC, I feel the liberty to pick and choose. The VP lit guides could be helpful for directing discussion but I certainly wouldn't feel the need to write answers to every question.

#45 mom2maddie

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 11:49 PM

For non VP users I wanted to clarify that the TG is not a lesson plan. It contains a worksheet, activities and tests for each card. It also has a really cool map that you use weekly and a notebook size timeline. The scholars lesson plans tells you exactly what to teach and how to teach every day for the subject that you buy. For history it integrates the timeline work, the songs, the additional historical fiction, geography songs, additonal projects and sometimes a writing activity. It really lays it all out for you.

I agree the website is confusing and so is the catalog. I finally just took a leap of faith and ordered it and have never been happier. You do not need the Scholars lesson plans, but maybe for the first year it will help you get the big picture. I don't think I will order them again, now that I've got my feet wet.

Susan

#46 staceyobu

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:00 AM

Ya know... several people I know IRL use veritas press. I've looked through the catalog extensively but never felt like I really "got" it. And, I never see it mentioned here. I'd not really given it a second though. But, now, looking at the book selections again... well, they look pretty good.

Would someone break down to me what I would need for a k'er for next year? She's reading on a late second grade level at least... so I'm thinking we could skip their phonics program. The first grade lit looks perfect for her. I have math plans in place already. Do I just buy the history and lit books? Then work out my own schedule for the year?

#47 SophiaH

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:10 AM

I have used the VP guides and they are reading comprehension and hands-on activities. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it's necessary for my goals at this time. I think I'm better off informally discussing and using narration with literature. But I am curious about the MP guides. They seem to be trying to do something different. They are also covering far fewer books in greater depth, so I would consider those.


Yes, this is my thinking on the subject as well. That's why I was curious about MP, because I like that they only cover the three books over the year, which makes me think that it is more than just "comprehension" type stuff. I might ask Tanya for a sample of one of the 3rd grade guides...did you see the samples of The Hobbit and The Trojan War that she posted on this thread? I like the vocabulary and the discussion questions...hmmm...

For non VP users I wanted to clarify that the TG is not a lesson plan. It contains a worksheet, activities and tests for each card. It also has a really cool map that you use weekly and a notebook size timeline. The scholars lesson plans tells you exactly what to teach and how to teach every day for the subject that you buy. For history it integrates the timeline work, the songs, the additional historical fiction, geography songs, additonal projects and sometimes a writing activity. It really lays it all out for you.

I agree the website is confusing and so is the catalog. I finally just took a leap of faith and ordered it and have never been happier. You do not need the Scholars lesson plans, but maybe for the first year it will help you get the big picture. I don't think I will order them again, now that I've got my feet wet.

Susan


Thank you, Susan...this is exactly the information that I was looking for. I'm really glad it includes the timeline and mapping...that is just something that I am having a really hard time doing without someone holding my hand. And my VSL daughter NEEDS that kind of stuff...she's always running and getting the globe to see where we're discussing, so it would be nice to have that incorporated right in the lesson plans. I do tend to tweak everything I use, so I can also see using them once and then not needing them again, but it would be helpful for getting started!

So, if I were to get just the history lesson plans, it's $49? And it includes Geography, Writing, Bible, Lit (from history), and History...basically it schedules in all the items in the Scholar's Planning Guide under the History and the One-Time Resource List? For two levels? Wow.

Thanks for all your help ladies! You've given me a lot to consider.

#48 NayfiesMama

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:18 AM

So, where can I see a day of the Scholar Plan??

:-)

#49 Honey Bee

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:17 AM

I want to thank the ladies who are excited about TOG. I think it is a creme of the crop curriculum, definitely a buffet, thorough and deep.


Jananc, the info you gave on how TOG ties in Bible and character helps a lot. I looked up their HS credits for "Bible" and this how it reads assuming a student did all of the assignments as given in the year-plan:

Y1: Bible History (1 credit)
Y2: Church History: Middle Ages to 1800 or Theological Studies I (1/2 credit)
Y3: Church History: The 1800's (1/2 credit)
Y4: Modern Church History (1/2 credit)

This is just for church history, there are other subjects to get credits, history, english, and literature being the big ones.

FYI, for those curious. Those in Omnibus who complete both primary and secondary readings receive 1 credit each for history, literature, and theology.

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Janice in NJ, you made a good point about TOG being educational to the teacher, looking and studying ahead for the latter years, definitely a strength there. TOG seems to really shine in the upper years, I can see how it would be not worth getting if I planned on doing Omnibus in the future. I agree that kids need the 3R's when younger. Lots to think about. I want them to have history, but I don't want it taking over, right now I am putting the majority of my time into language arts with 3 kiddos in the "learning to read" stage. I am looking for a history that is going to give me lots of good lit to read and some fun stuff too. You gave some good reflections on homeschool also. Currently, I am trying to consolidate language arts--you know get it as slim and yet effective as possible and I am changing my math to a more "parent" friendly math (MUS). Its solid, but much easier time wise. This should help with time...still though only 24 hrs. sigh.

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Dsacco, seems like you are really enjoying Tapestry, thanks for the encouragement. History is great for dinner time table talks, english and math just don't have "fun" things to share with dad at the end of the day. Our conversations almost always revolve around history, Bible, or science.

#50 Honey Bee

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:32 AM

Now I want to talk about Veritas. I'm in. :D

One thing that has plagued me was spending 5 years spread out, then 3 year rotations twice for Omnibus (isn't that squishing history). Well they probably have a good explanation, and I'm going to call tomorrow and I add that I am going to get a sample week for Scholars. Whoooo I wish I knew about that sooner! I do wish their scholars, history and bible TM were easier to see and clearly explained. I feel like more people would use them if that were the case.

Cajun.classical, you really shown some light on the Scholars lessons and what to expect. Part of me feels like I was making a "blind" decision with Veritas's materials (hence me fleshing it out with TOG), but when you, OhElizabeth, SilverMoon, and Heather in VA explain what VP really is, well is just what I am looking for. Thanks be to God, for you ladies, and those who have given their wisdom on this subject. I think both curriculums are great tools for families. Veritas is going to fit nicely with our goals for our children.



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