Construct a S&S for Grammar from Vintage e-books

[Medieval Mom]

If you were to construct a grammar program for grades 2-8 from vintage texts available from google e-books (or other equally available texts, such as Serl's PLL from Lost Classics, etc.), what would it be?

 

I like the looks of Sheldon's, of Mary Frances Hyde's Two-Book Course in English, Harvey's, etc., but I'm struggling with how I could use them in a logical sequence for grammar/logic stages. I'm looking for something comparable to the R&S English books (but more secular). I'll probably go with R&S (perhaps with vintage books to supplement)! I just want to see what all my options are.

 

 

I'll be using Delightful Dictation with Spelling, so I don't need anything to cover dictation/spelling...

Edited February 23, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[Poke Salad Annie]

Giving this a little bump, as I'm very interested in the same thing.

[Poke Salad Annie]

I'm not giving up yet. I think it will take some time to look over the table of contents on several of these old texts, which could be compared with the same from R & S. I can't find the title right now, but I think that Tara linked one a week ago which was a great lead up to Primary Language Lessons, so I guess that could work for first grade or so. I also like the Mary F. Hyde books as well, and they may work well along side the Sheldon's texts. I know I looked at the table of contents for Serl (ILL) last night, and it seems to be more writing than grammar, so possibly the second book of Hyde's would work well with that.

 

Maybe we could post on this thread all of the grammar texts that we have looked over and our impressions of them. That might help to sort them into years or some kind of progression.

[Medieval Mom]

Good idea!

 

I like "With Pencil and Pen" as a neat writing book for 2nd grade, but not for grammar. I would use this to supplement something like R&S 2 or another grade-appropriate grammar book. I love it's simple drawing for the children to copy.

 

Mary Frances Hyde recommends her "Two-Book Course in English" for 3rd, 4th, and 5th grades. I believe that you could work with it beginning in 2nd, though. The 5th grade assignments, however, do not look as challenging as R&S 5. Otherwise, I like that her books are a good mix between the "inductive" CM-like books of Serl's and the more "traditional" approach of Swinton. Her "Practical Lessons" also looks good.

 

Sheldon's looks like a great fit for 3rd grade, if followed to the T, or for older 2nd graders. It could definitely work for most 2nd graders if some work were done orally.

 

Many of the texts I found seem ideal for beginning in 3rd, if followed to the letter, including Raub's Practical Language Work for Beginners.

 

A neat choice for students who have learned script or cursive would be Primary Lessons by William Maxwell. 2nd grade, I'd think. This, like "With Pencil and Pen", seems more focused on usage than grammar.

 

My biggest concern here, with all of these, is lack of continuity and development of the "modern" approach to student skills, such as outlining, reports, etc. I don't know if I can let myself use these ALONE. I'm leaning toward using them in conjunction with R&S, since it provides the continuity and progression of skills (and has the stamp of approval from SWB:lol: ) But I adore the older, romantic writing of these e-texts with their images of nature, pets, children, poetry... :001_wub:

Edited February 23, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[Medieval Mom]

OOOh!!! The series by William Henry Maxwell is BEAUTIFUL!!! He himself proclaims the importance both of "language lessons" and grammar, and combines them both in his books.

 

His sequence:

2nd : Primary Lessons in Language and Composition (just usage here)

3-4-5th: First Book in English

Age 10-12: Introductory Lessons

12+: Advanced Lessons in English Grammar.

High School: Writing in English

 

I have no idea how these compare to R&S, however. He does include some diagramming, though :D AND he includes re-writes of Aesop's fables, etc., ala CW!!!

 

Interesting!!

Edited February 23, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[materursa]

OOOh!!! The series by William Henry Maxwell is BEAUTIFUL!!! He himself proclaims the importance both of "language lessons" and grammar, and combines them both in his books.

 

 

Where could I see these books?

 

Thanks!

Amanda

[Medieval Mom]

Where could I see these books?

 

Thanks!

Amanda

 

Google e-books ;)

[Poke Salad Annie]

Okay, this is a sequence that was printed in the front of one of the texts I just looked over. (For the Maxwell texts)

 

First Book in English

for use in elementary grades

 

Introductory Lessons in English Grammar

for use in grammar grades

 

Advanced Lessons in English Grammar

for use in higher grammar classes and high schools

 

then for Composition:

 

Maxwell & Johnston's School Composition

for use in higher grammar grades

 

Maxwell & Smith's Writing in English

for use in higher grammar classes and high schools

 

(These seem to be something like the imitation style writing programs I've briefly looked at but haven't bought. They both look very nice---outlining, paragraph writing, etc.)

 

One more I like for speech:

 

Speaking and Writing: For use in fifth year classes

about teaching children to speak, persuasion

also memorization and models from great speeches--also storytelling, writing letters and plays, etc.

(this states it is Book Three in the series, so I'm not sure which are Book One and Book Two)

 

 

Oooh, me! I'm going to have a field day today looking over these materials! As you can tell from my signature, I love and use vintage texts. This is a fantastic find, Medieval Mom. Thank you so much!

[Medieval Mom]

Yes! In the Preface of First Book, Maxwell writes that it may be preceded by Primary Lessons in Language and Composition. Looking over Primary Lessons, the written examples show "I am seven years old", etc. I'm amazed and excited at the quality of writing expected from seven year olds by Mr. Maxwell. :) The letters to copy and improve are simply lovely! I, too, love old vintage texts :001_tt1:

 

Oh dear! I was just about to place my order for R&S! What to do! :laugh: Do you think using both would be overkill? Or could I chalk this up to have a grammar program (R&S) and writing (Maxwell series)??? Or do you think Maxwell sufficiently covers both areas???

Edited February 23, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[Poke Salad Annie]

I would say that for a 6 y/old, the Maxwell's text looks great, and your child my enjoy the pictures and story writing exercises. If you don't mind printing, I would say go for it. I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth in this, but I wonder if some of the R & S books are based upon some of these old, vintage texts.

 

I will also add that I really like how the Maxwell texts offer more explanation for the exercises. Sheldon's doesn't offer as much, so I may have to add in Maxwell or even switch.

[Medieval Mom]

I would say that for a 6 y/old, the Maxwell's text looks great, and your child my enjoy the pictures and story writing exercises. If you don't mind printing, I would say go for it. I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth in this, but I wonder if some of the R & S books are based upon some of these old, vintage texts.

 

I will also add that I really like how the Maxwell texts offer more explanation for the exercises. Sheldon's doesn't offer as much, so I may have to add in Maxwell or even switch.

 

 

I've often wondered the same thing! We're happy with Swinton's and CLE LA 1 for first, but I'm STRONGLY considering Maxwell's Primary Lessons for 2nd with Delightful Dictation.

 

Lesson XII teaches proper names with Cinderella, Tommy Tucker, Jack Spratt, Silverhair, etc. How lovely! The book is riddled with lovely quotes from fairy tales and favorite poets, like Stevenson. Ah! If I could have written these books, I would have ;)

 

Perhaps Maxwell's plus Delightful Dictation with Spelling is enough for 2nd grade? Should I get R&S for reference and introduce whatever topics are not found in Maxwell's? (I guess the price is right...) I was thinking of using R&S as a spice and adding Maxwell, but maybe I'll do it the other way around? :confused::confused::confused:

 

I certainly like the looks of Maxwell better than what I've seen of CW!!

[Poke Salad Annie]

 

Lesson XII teaches proper names with Cinderella, Tommy Tucker, Jack Spratt, Silverhair, etc. How lovely! The book is riddled with lovely quotes from fairy tales and favorite poets, like Stevenson. Ah! If I could have written these books, I would have ;)

 

I noticed this too, and I also found it adorable.

 

Perhaps Maxwell's plus Delightful Dictation with Spelling is enough for 2nd grade? Should I get R&S for reference and introduce whatever topics are not found in Maxwell's? (I guess the price is right...) I was thinking of using R&S as a spice and adding Maxwell, but maybe I'll do it the other way around? :confused::confused::confused:

 

Why would you need the R & S for reference? I have an old copy of The Write Source (1987), and I am finding it great for reference. I only paid 25 cents at the thrift store, and for that price it will be perfect for my needs. Why not just print out a week's worth of lessons from Maxwell's, give it a try and gauge the response?

 

I certainly like the looks of Maxwell better than what I've seen of CW!!

 

I was thinking the same thing!

 

 

 

One more thought is to to make two columns and write pros and cons for both programs and go from there. Having it on paper to look at could help with your decision.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2010 by Poke Salad Annie

[Medieval Mom]

Thanks! This is good advice!!:)

[HootyTooty]

OOOh!!! The series by William Henry Maxwell is BEAUTIFUL!!! He himself proclaims the importance both of "language lessons" and grammar, and combines them both in his books.

 

His sequence:

2nd : Primary Lessons in Language and Composition (just usage here)

3-4-5th: First Book in English

Age 10-12: Introductory Lessons

12+: Advanced Lessons in English Grammar.

High School: Writing in English

I have no idea how these compare to R&S, however. He does include some diagramming, though :D AND he includes re-writes of Aesop's fables, etc., ala CW!!!

 

Interesting!!

Bumping this to ask in which of Maxwell's books did you see diagramming. I'm suearching but keep getting Sheldon's books (which I have used in the past).

[Medieval Mom]

Bumping this to ask in which of Maxwell's books did you see diagramming. I'm suearching but keep getting Sheldon's books (which I have used in the past).

 

Introductory Lessons in English Grammar.

 

HTH!

[HootyTooty]

Introductory Lessons in English Grammar.

 

HTH!

Thank you, after I posted I found it. I like the way R&S lays it out (easier on the eyes) but I love my Sheldon books.

Edited March 1, 2010 by HootyTooty

[Poke Salad Annie]

I love the Sheldon books here as well. After looking over the table of contents for the Intermediate book, I am wondering about adding in the Maxwell text as it looks vigorous. We will be continuing with KISS grammar though, as I see that as more of the "hands on" part of our grammar work.

[Haiku]

:lurk5:

[HootyTooty]

(I'm sorry for hijacking your thread)

I'm stuck on the diagramming. We used Sheldon's Primary last year for my 2nd grader and I switched him to R&S 3 this year. I have found that that the Sheldon's covered a big chunk of what he learned in R&S 3, with the exception the diagramming (which is why I choose R&S in the end). How I can get the diagramming (like it is presented in R&S without buying it)?

 

ETA: I think one of my bookmarks might help with that answer: http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/diagram.htm#working

Edited March 1, 2010 by HootyTooty

[Poke Salad Annie]

I'm sorry, I mistakenly posted about viewing the TOC for Serl's Intermediate Language Lessons, not Sheldon's Advanced Language Lessons.

 

I'm still interested in keeping this thread alive and welcome any opinions. It is so much easier for me to view something online, such as the vintage (free) grammar texts, than to guess what the overall view of another program is that I cannot see up close (for example, R & S).

[Poke Salad Annie]

(I'm sorry for hijacking your thread)

I'm stuck on the diagramming. We used Sheldon's Primary last year for my 2nd grader and I switched him to R&S 3 this year. I have found that that the Sheldon's covered a big chunk of what he learned in R&S 3, with the exception the diagramming (which is why I choose R&S in the end). How I can get the diagramming (like it is presented in R&S without buying it)?

 

ETA: I think one of my bookmarks might help with that answer: http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/diagram.htm#working

 

Great find! It is also comforting to know how the Sheldon's PLL compares to R & S.

[Haiku]

I used Sheldon's PLL this year with my 2nd grader. We did a lot of it orally and I did not do the composition exercises. My plan was to move on to FLL 3 next year. I don't know what I will use come 5th grade, but this thread has gotten me interested in using one of the vintage texts. I've already had about 8 grammar books on my Google bookshelf. My main concern is that they don't come with answer keys!

 

Tara

[Poke Salad Annie]

I found diagramming in Sheldon's Advanced Language Lessons! Look at page 346 and go over the next several pages. It's there!

 

Tara, I do agree about the lack of teacher's manuals for these vintage texts. I did find a key to a couple of Sheldon's math and algebra texts though. I know, not helpful, but if you're in the market for a teacher's key for Sheldon's math and algebra...

 

I also have another thought that hangs in the back of my mind. It seems to me that some of these nice, vintage texts are disappearing from the *full view* on Google books. I'm wondering that possibly as publishers are reprinting these books, they disappear from Google books for our use. Does anyone know about this?

[HootyTooty]

I found diagramming in Sheldon's Advanced Language Lessons! Look at page 346 and go over the next several pages. It's there!

 

Tara, I do agree about the lack of teacher's manuals for these vintage texts. I did find a key to a couple of Sheldon's math and algebra texts though. I know, not helpful, but if you're in the market for a teacher's key for Sheldon's math and algebra...

 

I also have another thought that hangs in the back of my mind. It seems to me that some of these nice, vintage texts are disappearing from the *full view* on Google books. I'm wondering that possibly as publishers are reprinting these books, they disappear from Google books for our use. Does anyone know about this?

I found it there, the way it was explained seemed more complicated than the way R&S did it. I might need to sit with it a while, but I can see my dc getting confused.

 

I'm always of the thought that things can disappear online quickly so I downloaded most of the e-books.

Edited March 1, 2010 by HootyTooty
spelling

[Haiku]

I'm always off the thought that things can disappear online quickly so I downloaded most of the e-books.

 

Yep. I have a bunch of pdf files stored in a folder on my computer.

 

Tara

[Medieval Mom]

I found it there, the way it was explained seemed more complicated than the way R&S did it. I might need to sit with it a while, but I can see my dc getting confused.

 

I'm always off the thought that things can disappear online quickly so I downloaded most of the e-books.

 

I agree. :tongue_smilie: I've learned to download it while we can! It's also very frustrating to me to try to find old copies on amazon, only to find overpriced hard-copies of reprints. Bleh :thumbdown: Thank goodness Lost Classics hasn't taken this approach. They have taken the pains to re-type Serl's and publish it in a gorgeous little book and an incredibly decent price. :thumbup1:

 

I think we'll be using these as supplements to our main program (which I currently think will be R&S). I like the old composition assignments, for example, but will probably reserve them for grades 3+. Maybe I'll just print off the pages for these particularly good assignments, or copy and paste into Word :)

[Poke Salad Annie]

Tara, do you remember a grammar text that you linked to which was a very nice lead in to Sheldon's PLL? I know someone posted one, and I thought it was you. If so, do you mind reposting the name of the text for us here to add onto this thread? It might be helpful to those looking for something as a gentle first exposure to grammar before starting up with Sheldon's or another vintage text.

 

My hope is to print off the TOC from these programs and look over them all this week if I have time, then post what my thoughts are. Hopefully we can all work together to come up with some kind of outline which would be helpful to others and very doable.

[AngelBee]

:lurk5:

[Medieval Mom]

Tara, do you remember a grammar text that you linked to which was a very nice lead in to Sheldon's PLL? I know someone posted one, and I thought it was you. If so, do you mind reposting the name of the text for us here to add onto this thread? It might be helpful to those looking for something as a gentle first exposure to grammar before starting up with Sheldon's or another vintage text.

 

My hope is to print off the TOC from these programs and look over them all this week if I have time, then post what my thoughts are. Hopefully we can all work together to come up with some kind of outline which would be helpful to others and very doable.

 

Perhaps it was I? ;)

 

With Pencil and Pen

[Poke Salad Annie]

Perhaps it was I? ;)

 

With Pencil and Pen

 

Yep, that's the one! Sorry for the confusion. I really need to start a notebook of good things (Martha would like that ;)), so that I can keep up with all these great ideas that are shared here.

 

That is such a cute text, and seems to be perfect for a gentle start with grammar. Great find! :)

[Haiku]

With Pencil and Pen

 

Yep, that's the one. :)

 

Tara

[stripe]

These are neat -- may I ask, how did you find these? Since the first group are under "Foreign Language" subject.

[stripe]

I just found this one, which was prepared for schools in the Phillipines (main characters are named Luis and Felisa, they eat things like rice and mangoes, and so on):

First primary language book by Orlando Schairer Reimold

[Marsha]

So,

Has anyone determined what age/grades each of these could be used for?

[Marsha]

Here is another one....

http://books.google.com/books?id=s_QAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=child%27s+own+book+of+english&source=bl&ots=eYz8pJKncq&sig=ncktt-20rUsFkWL61YLQZmAtsZg&hl=en&ei=_PeLS9_mLYOKNP3F2aYB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Haiku]

In answer to your original question, here is what I would probably do were I planning to go from grades 1-8 solely with vintage texts:

 

First grade: With Pencil and Pen

 

Second/Third Grade: Sheldon's Primary Language Lessons and Progressive Composition Lessons 1 (Ida M. Brautigam); I'd stretch these out over two years and do more of it written rather than orally.

 

Fourth/Fifth Grade: Sheldon's Advanced Language Lessons and Progressive Composition Lessons 2 (2 years each)

 

Then I would move into the Maxwell books, Introductory Lessons and School Composition followed by Advanced Lessons and Writing in English.

 

I'd also like to take a closer look at The Mother Tongue books by Sarah Arnold. The Swinton School Composition book looks excellent, too.

 

Tara

[Medieval Mom]

I just found this one, which was prepared for schools in the Phillipines (main characters are named Luis and Felisa, they eat things like rice and mangoes, and so on):

First primary language book by Orlando Schairer Reimold

 

Here's the Second.

 

These look adorable!

[HootyTooty]

My plan looked similiar to Tara's:

 

Second: With Pencil and Pen

 

Third: Sheldon's Primary Language Lessons (a lot of the lessons can be combined)

 

Fourth/Fifth Grade: Sheldon's Advanced Language Lessons and Good English Oral and Written by William Elson- (while the book says grades 3 and 4, I find that it works for 4 and 5).

[Marsha]

I cannot find these...

Progressive Composition Lessons 1

Progressive Composition Lessons 2

 

Can someone show me where they are at?

 

Thank you

[Haiku]

Progressive Composition Lessons 1

 

Progressive Composition Lessons 2

 

Progressive Compositions Lessons 3

 

Tara

[Marsha]

Thank you TaraTheLiberator

[stripe]

Here's the Second.

 

These look adorable!

According to the chart at the beginning of one of them, here's their progression (with their description). I couldn't find two of them:

 

READING, LANGUAGE, AND SPELLING

 

FIRST YEAR

The Philippine Chart

By Mary E. Coleman, Margaret A. Purceix, and O. S. Reimold. First Lessons in English. Illustrated.

 

The Philippine Chart Primer

By Mary E. Coleman, Margaret A. Purcell, O. S. Reimold, and John W. Ritchie. Pupils' edition of The Philippine Chart. Illustrated.

 

The First Year Book: Revised Edition

By Mary H. Fee, Margaret' A. Purceix, Parker H. Fillmore, and John W. Ritchie. A beautifully illustrated language reader.

(includes crafts such as weaving)

 

The First Year Book: Teachers' Edition

Includes The First Year Manual by Margaret A. Purceix.

 

SECOND YEAR

First Primary Language Book: New Revised Edition

By O. S. Reimold. A further development of conversation and writing exercises begun in The First Year Book. A new edition, beautifully illustrated.

 

First Spelling Book

By Margaret A. Purcell. Parts I and II correlate with First Primary Language Book. Profusely illustrated.

 

THIRD AND FOURTH YEARS

Stories of Long Ago in the Philippines

By D. O. Mcgovney. A primer of Philippine history for third or fourth year reading. Illustrated.

 

Second Primary Language Book: Revised Edition

By O. S. Reimold. Unusually interesting composition and drill exercises on essential language forms. Illustrated.

[Robinson Crusoe themed]

 

First Spelling Book

By Margaret A. Purcell. Parts III and IV correlate with Second Primary Language Book. Illustrated.

 

Industrial Studies and Exercises

By O. S. Reimold. Presents the essential industries, with language work based thereon; specific directions to teachers given in the teachers' edition. Illustrated.

Edited March 1, 2010 by stripe

[lovemykids]

Great ideas here... Have you seen this beginning grammar program already put together on Lulu? It looks lovely!

Were you insinuating that I am wishy-washy in your other thread? :ohmy: I like clever MUCH better. :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

[stripe]

While looking for one of the missing books (above), I found this rather extensive website of links to free vintage books:

http://freehomeschoolinglibrar.blogspot.com/

 

Which contains these relevant pages:

Children's Graded Readers (Google Books)

Children's Graded Readers( Project Gutenberg) Quick List

[Medieval Mom]

Great ideas here... Have you seen this beginning grammar program already put together on Lulu? It looks lovely!

Were you insinuating that I am wishy-washy in your other thread? :ohmy: I like clever MUCH better. :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

 

Heavens no!! :svengo: I only meant that I AM feeling wishy-washy, and that you're all probably getting tired of my endless searching and questions!! :blushing:

[Kfamily]

This one is for grades 4-6

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hj8XAAAAIAAJ&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

 

This one is for grades 7-8

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=xuEAAAAAYAAJ&dq=editions:OCLC10648180&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[nansk]

I certainly like the looks of Maxwell better than what I've seen of CW!!

 

Hi Medieval Mom,

 

Did you refer to the Classical Writing series here? (Primer, Aesop, Homer, etc?)

 

Regards

Nandini

[Medieval Mom]

Hi Medieval Mom,

 

Did you refer to the Classical Writing series here? (Primer, Aesop, Homer, etc?)

 

Regards

Nandini

 

 

Yes, I did. I know it's a very popular program, but I like the examples and simplicity of Maxwell very much. :blush:

[Haiku]

but I like the examples and simplicity of Maxwell very much. :blush:

 

Yeah, I'm all geeked out about Maxwell. Not quite as giddy as I was when I found Sheldon's PLL, but I've definitely got a crush going on. I know I have a crush when I sit down several times a day and sneak peeks at my downloaded pdf. I haven't yet reached the "dreaming about you" stage, but I'm sure that as we get to know one another better, I'll get there.

 

One of my irl friends told me the other day that grammar curricula is "my thing." Although I was, in a former, kid-free life, an editor, I never really thought of myself as a grammar nerd. But I guess I am. My husband has always told me I am a nerd at heart, even with Strawberry-Shortcake colored hair.

 

Medieval Mom, thanks for starting this thread.

 

Tara

[Medieval Mom]

Yeah, I'm all geeked out about Maxwell. Not quite as giddy as I was when I found Sheldon's PLL, but I've definitely got a crush going on. I know I have a crush when I sit down several times a day and sneak peeks at my downloaded pdf. I haven't yet reached the "dreaming about you" stage, but I'm sure that as we get to know one another better, I'll get there.

 

One of my irl friends told me the other day that grammar curricula is "my thing." Although I was, in a former, kid-free life, an editor, I never really thought of myself as a grammar nerd. But I guess I am. My husband has always told me I am a nerd at heart, even with Strawberry-Shortcake colored hair.

 

Medieval Mom, thanks for starting this thread.

 

Tara

 

 

 

From one grammar geek to another, I say "You're welcome!" I keep sneaking peeks at Maxwell, too. :001_wub:

 

In your opinion, Tara, would Maxwell's First Book in English be appropriate for a 2nd grader? I know Maxwell (or his publisher) recommends third grade, but it seems as if ALL those early grammar books do.

 

So, could we construct a Maxwell S&S like this?

 

Advanced S&S for the Older or Ambitious Student

2-3-4th: First Book in English

5th: Speaking and Writing for Use in Fifth Year

6th: Introductory Lessons in English Grammar

7th & 8th: School Composition & Advanced Lessons (concurrently)

9+: Writing in English

 

Average (according to Victorian Standards) Student

2nd: Primary Lessons in Language and Composition (begin in 2nd half of 2nd and don't worry about finishing before third, or begin in 2nd and take slowly.) With Pencil and Pen could be substituted.

3-4-5: First Book in English

5th: Speaking and Writing (concurrent with 3rd section of First Book)

6th & 7th: Introductory Lessons

8&9th: School Composition (concurrently)

10-12th: Writing in English

 

Mixing and matching would create endless variations. I can see, for example, using Mary Hyde's Two Book Course in English Book 1 with Maxwell's First Book in English.