Desperately need advise on 4th grade math

[Wendy in ME]

I have a young 9yo ds who has been struggling with math since 2nd grade when we took him out of a private school. He just doesn't get the whys. He gets by because he is memorizing the process. This leads to lots of frustrating mistakes because he doesn't even realize that the answer that he came up with doesn't even make sense. Math has become a source of so much frustration and even, as much as I hate to admit, yelling and crying. I can't tell sometimes if he just wants me to just give him all the answers or if he just doesn't get it. We are using R&S 4th this year. I love this program for my other ds but he would do well with any program I gave him. I am a believer in mastering the basics to build a good, strong foundation for upper level math so I really like R&S but on the other hand, one of the many reasons that we HS is to provide our children with a customized education. I don't want to be a curriculum jumper and I really don't feel that all problems can be solved by a different curriculum but I have to wonder if he would do better with one of the more hands on type programs. As I am writing this, he is struggling with subtraction where borrowing is needed. He knows his multiplication facts and can go through the steps of long division but he doesn't see the problem with a quotient that is larger than what he started with. Thanks for reading this far.:eek:

[DIY-DY]

Oh, I'd look at MUS. A friend and I joked about how much *we* learned from our sons' first grade math, doing the year with Steve. But things are clear with MUS - Why. How. When. Good stuff. It makes sense. If you haven't looked at it yet, give it a peek.

 

Math-U-See

[Sandi_NC]

I could have written this post myself! My 9 y/o ds (who turns 10 next month!) is having an extremely difficult time with R&S 4 in exactly the same way! We have spent some time before in MUS (he worked through Beta) but R&S worked so well for us that I didn't want to mess things up. However, I'm seriously considering going back to MUS or possibly trying Singapore.

 

I'll be anxious to see other responses!

[Closeacademy]

Have you thought about adding manipulatives to R&S. With regrouping you can make or buy a base 10 kit. You could use small stones for 1's, popcycle sticks for 10's, glue 10 sticks together for 100's and glue 10 of those together for 1000's.

 

I think rod and staff uses a farm idea for place value but I like the idea of a rainbow red is ones, orange is tens, yellow is 100's, green is 1000's etc. And you tell him that you can only fit 9 in each column so if you get anything over that you have to move it over.

 

But for subtraction you have the number act like a family where the smaller child wants to buy or give something away but doesn't have enough so they have to ask the larger number. My dd really likes these sorts of stories and it helps make subtraction with re-grouping fun.

 

For division, I always liked John Holt's idea and I have encountered it elsewhere as well. You give the child a number of small objects and some containers and ask them to divide the objects equally. So like 36 divided by 3 you would give him 36 buttons and 3 large cups and have him divide them equally and then he can find out how many times 3 goes into 36 by counting the buttons in 1 cup.

 

This can work for division problems with remainders as well because you will have a certain number of buttons left over that do not divide equally.

 

I hope this helps and hang in there. I know I struggled a lot with math in school but it is so clear as an adult that it is really lots of fun!

[Harriet Vane]

My dd really struggled in math (still does, though not nearly as badly). We found the Math-U-See videos to be a real lifesaver. Mr. Demme does an excellent job of explaining the "why" as you go along, and he makes very effective use of manipulatives to demonstrate the principles.

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Wendy,

 

I'm not positive, but I thought I read on these boards once before, that with R&S, the "memorizing the process" comes first in the lower grades, then the understanding of the whys and hows comes in later levels. You might want to make another "R&S math longtime users" post and ask about that. I have to say, that in using the grade 5 book now, I do see a bit of this idea - some of the whys of the earlier learned processes are becoming clearer. I get the impression R&S gives the process in earlier grades, and explains layer by layer through the years.

 

Anyway, when I've come up with this type of problem with my son, I tend to go back in the book to the lesson where the concept was first introduced, and take myself back through the steps of the process, but also the teacher's manual Teaching Guide. Often I find that there is one little phrase or sentence or step that I missed the first time around, and it makes all the difference in my understanding. Then I can re-teach it to my ds. (I did that just today with him - I was stumped on something I thought I understood, and went back through the TM, sure enough, I'd forgotten a part of the process)

 

Example: go back to lesson 11 for borrowing in subtraction, reteach yourself using the Teaching Guide and student lesson. In the Teaching Guide 1d., manipulatives are used to demonstrate the concept. Also, if it makes it easier, in the 2nd grade book, the process of borrowing goes like this:

 

- start with the ones column

- is the greater number at the top?

- if not, we need to "borrow back" one from tens place

- now the greater number is at the top, and we can subtract the lower digit from the upper digit

 

Lessons 12 and 13 go deeper into it.

 

Long division: lesson 38 has the basic steps to go through, and I'll tell ya, there is one tiny little step in there that I was never taught, that has revolutionized how I do division!! LOL It's steps 3 and 5 - compare!! That is very helpful in getting the right answer, instead of guessing.

 

BTW, when I said "reteach yourself," I also meant reteach yourself with the Teacher's Guide section of the TM, so that you can go back through the through process with you son. :)

 

And I just discovered that I can edit a post - whoohoooo!!!

 

hth

[Wendy in ME]

I just wanted to thank everyone for all the suggestions. We are starting a new chapter today so we will see how today goes. The past week has been a real struggle. Dh thinks he is just not working but I do think he is really having trouble. I still can't decide if it is just that he needs more extra work at a slower pace or if he would benefit from a more hands on approach. At this point, I am leaning toward just slowing down and continuing with math over the summer. I need to relax and not worry about getting it all done. He is a very young and immature 4th grader that probably never should have started school when he did.

[PeterPan]

Wendy, I'm responding to this after reading your RS vs. MUS post. If I could make a suggestion, I think RS's approach to place value is extremely strong. Also, it does not have to be extremely expensive. I would suggest that you get:

 

-Transitions http://www.activitiesforlearning.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=15 ($20)

 

-worksheets for Transitions ($5)

 

-base 10 picture cards ($2.50?)

 

-place value cards ($5)

 

-abacus (any size will do, $10-20)

 

-abacus tiles -inexpensive, there's a pattern in Transitions you can photocopy or just buy the cardstock ones that you assemble.

 

Do Transitions and then see where you're at. You have to do that to go into any of the higher levels of RS (C and up), anyway, so it's a good first step. You might do that and find it repairs his foundation enough that you just want to stick with R&S. Personally, I'd suggest considering BJU after RS, because it continues that same pattern of going through concepts step by step and building understanding. BJU has workbooks for gr 3 and 4, so you could put him whereever he fits best after Transitions and have it be very easy to use. Just rip the cover off so he doesn't know the grade level. ;)

[Wendy in ME]

OhElizabeth, thank you so much for this suggestion! I would have to start there anyway. I am going to search these options now while the boys are gone to their PE class. I don't know why I always feel that everything has to be all or nothing. I always seem to jump into whatever it is I'm starting.

[Sue G in PA]

For example, my dd11 is doing Saxon 7/6 with ease. She's good at math. However, she too, doesn't understand her mistakes sometimes. You mentioned not quite getting why a larger quotient is problematic. My dd11 comes up with answers that to me just scream WRONG! To her, they must be right b/c she did the problem the right way. I just go over the problems and make sure she understands the whys as we go along. For example, in your division problems, (My dd has done the same) I would ask her what happens to a number when it is divided (does it get smaller or larger). She'll usually say, "smaller, duh!". Then I ask her to look at her answer. At this point, she usually has the "ah, hah!" moment and it clicks. SOmetimes it is laziness, sometimes it is just lack of experience. Give it some time and patience (as hard as that is, I KNOW!) and he'll get it. Try MUS if you really think he's struggling...Steve Demme really has a gift for explaining math (even Algebra!) in concrete terms.

[Storm Bay]

We haven't used R&S Math (just English), but we have used a number of math curricula in our quest to find what works for each of our dc. What is your ds's primary learning style? If it's visual and/or kinesthetic, I do strongly recommend MUS at least as a supplement, and I don't say this lightly as I was initially very turned off by the name and the approach. We use it alongside of Singapore, but my kids often understand what they're doing. Not always, so my dd, 9, who is very visual-spatial needs MUS for some concepts. She also needs SM for others, and me when neither makes it click for her. My ds, 7, also benefits from MUS. MUS is mastery based, not graded and it's nearly impossible to correlate it directly with other methods, so we don't. You can often find the TM and teaching DVDs/videos used, but I try to buy the workbooks new to support MUS as I think it's doing a great service for many kids. OTOH, my 12 yo hated Epsilon and the fraction overlays. My second one liked it.