If I like the way Foerster presents algebra, what do I want for pre-algebra?

[PeterPan]

I'm working through the Foerster algebra 1 book right now, and I like the way it approaches things. Even little things matter. He splits hairs over making the variable actually VARY, so the dc see it in that context, rather than just making it a mystery number the way many curricula do. His understanding is more mature, or more helpful, to my mind that way. But if I want something to fill between the BJU6 we're finishing and the Foerester's algebra 1, where do I go? In looking at the BJU7 samples, they just do plug and chug, no sense of the theory or where it's going. (Half the book is a review of basic math, the other is pre-algebra). Their new edition pre-algebra won't be out till next fall, and I don't see how they'll do it any differently.

 

So what's a Foerster lover to do? Ok Momof7, I hear you saying MUS, hehe... Now tell me, do they cover the things CONCEPTUALLY the way Foerster does? Or are they doing to do it by rote or simplistically, leaving me to unteach and mature the thinking come algebra 1? And if I'm buying current materials, what in the world am I buying?

 

Any more options? I don't know. I just thought algebra was algebra. Didn't occur to me I would see such differences. I know there's proofy math, but the hill I've decided to die on is application. So I want good conceptual instruction that leads to an ability to apply. I'm thinking Foerster plus AoPS would be a good mix, but I don't know what to do till then. As you suggest things, can you comment on how it approaches the math conceptually? I'm opening my mind to all sorts of things (Lials, Keys to, etc.), but it's really hard to gauge the thought process of each one. I don't see how a remediation book (Lials) is going to get me to where I want to be. I don't know. You just can't tell without seeing the stuff, kwim?

[Susan C.]

Few thoughts: What we like and what the kids like can be worlds apart..... because we have already been through math. First kid, math curriculum guinea pig, both kids, liberal arts bent, can't fill in the gaps. I own most of Chalkdust (wanna buy my prealgebra book??). I love Chalkdust, and wish I could have had it when I was in school. Both kids can't do Chalkdust.... I just tried it with my second kid who has done BJU since the 3rd grade. And, we are back with BJU (geometry). If your dd is doing well with BJU, don't rock the boat!

 

-from a mom who has been tortured with math curriculums since the beginning of time,

Susan

[Rebecca VA]

Hi, Elizabeth. We made the switch to Foerster's about six weeks ago, and I like it very much as well. We're using the Math Without Borders teaching CD-ROM. What a blessing to have Mr. Chandler explain the material so thoroughly and work the problems with the student looking on. I feel my student is getting the very best instruction, and a bonus for us is that it forces her to slow down and absorb the teaching. Her preferred way of doing math is to glance at the instruction in the book for about five seconds and then rush in and solve the problems. She got about a third of the way through Dolciani Algebra I before she realized that wasn't going to work anymore. (Dolciani Algebra is wonderful, but I'm not strong in algebra, and my husband has been out of the country all fall, so we had to switch to a program with excellent teacher support, which the Foerster's/Math Without Borders combo provides.)

 

Anyway...last year she used Dolciani's Pre-Algebra: An Accelerated Course. That was a REALLY NICE program that worked perfectly for her. It taught her to think in an algebraic way. She was already extremely strong in arithmetic, and this was a great introduction to higher math, including statistics and easy trigonometry.

 

Pre-Algebra: An Accelerated Course is no longer published, but you can still purchase copies -- even new, unused copies -- through Amazon and other booksellers. I purchased new copies of the TM and the solution key and bought a used, public school copy of the student text. I almost held on to them just out of fondness, but I sold them last summer to a mom on these boards.

[swimmermom3]

I'm working through the Foerster algebra 1 book right now, and I like the way it approaches things. Even little things matter. He splits hairs over making the variable actually VARY, so the dc see it in that context, rather than just making it a mystery number the way many curricula do. His understanding is more mature, or more helpful, to my mind that way. But if I want something to fill between the BJU6 we're finishing and the Foerester's algebra 1, where do I go? In looking at the BJU7 samples, they just do plug and chug, no sense of the theory or where it's going. (Half the book is a review of basic math, the other is pre-algebra). Their new edition pre-algebra won't be out till next fall, and I don't see how they'll do it any differently.

 

So what's a Foerster lover to do? Ok Momof7, I hear you saying MUS, hehe... Now tell me, do they cover the things CONCEPTUALLY the way Foerster does? Or are they doing to do it by rote or simplistically, leaving me to unteach and mature the thinking come algebra 1? And if I'm buying current materials, what in the world am I buying?

 

Any more options? I don't know. I just thought algebra was algebra. Didn't occur to me I would see such differences. I know there's proofy math, but the hill I've decided to die on is application. So I want good conceptual instruction that leads to an ability to apply. I'm thinking Foerster plus AoPS would be a good mix, but I don't know what to do till then. As you suggest things, can you comment on how it approaches the math conceptually? I'm opening my mind to all sorts of things (Lials, Keys to, etc.), but it's really hard to gauge the thought process of each one. I don't see how a remediation book (Lials) is going to get me to where I want to be. I don't know. You just can't tell without seeing the stuff, kwim?

 

Elizabeth, since I am not familiar with BJU math, I have a question. Do you need to fill "the gap" between BJU6 and Foerster's because you perceive that you dc will be missing skills otherwise needed for Algebra I or do you need something to fill the gap time wise? Sorry for being a little dense here. Oh and :grouphug: to you for asking this question and for being at a point where you are reevaluating what you are doing. You asked some tough questions in your other post. I had some of the same concerns which is why we will be moving to Foerster's after we finish Saxon 8/7 (thanks Rebecca!).

[In The Great White North]

My older two did a "recent" Dolicani Algebra I (in 7th & 8th at a school), before an early 1980's Foerster Algebra I at home. The newer book ended about midway through the older book, so the Dolciani acted like pre-algebra for them and worked well.

 

Youngest is already at home and is using an older Dolciani Math 8 for pre-algebra. It has most of what the newer Dolciani Algebra I had, plus a bit of geometry and some miscellaneous tidbits (intro to topography, metric system, etc) I think she'll be prepared for Foerster next year.

[MicheleinMN]

BJU Pre-Algebra here. 2 down, 1 current, and 3 more to go.

[PeterPan]

Swimmer--I've been thinking about your comment and thinking! You're right, I haven't fundamentally figured out whether I'm looking for more arithmetic (math 7) or pre-algebra. They overlap so much. I just ordered a dolciani pre-algebra (used) to see if that might fit. I just don't really know what I'm looking for. In researching the dolciani I came across some math competition stuff http://www.unl.edu/amc/d-publication/publication.shtml that looks like it would be fun for dd. I plan to order the cd and let her work through back tests. If push came to shove, I think what I want is arithmetic, but in a more stimulating and sophisticated way, with enough meat that we could slow it down, do lots of word problems on the side, and do pre-algebra next fall. But I could be all wet on that. How do you know when they're ready for pre-algebra? She wants to do more negative numbers, but she doesn't seem to have a hankering for algebraic notation yet. Her brain works that way, but she hasn't explored it yet on her own or asked. She just got really fascinated by the living math books about algebra (Gebra Named Al, etc.), so she wants to pursue it. So how do you know when to move on? That's why I have that Dolciani coming, to see if it will be obvious. If that doesn't fit, I'll pick up some Keys to books or make her do Fred. Actually, I don't think Fred is what she needs. She doesn't need to learn the stuff. I just want her to have interesting ways to use it, hence the challenging word problems, competition stuff, etc. I just don't see the need to rush, kwim? I want something deep, something challenging, where it's not necessary to compact lessons just to learn or do something, where it's not already immediately obvious to her. Immediately obvious doesn't mean she doesn't need to do it, kwim?

 

Well if that's talking in circles, there's a reason. :)

[Capt_Uhura]

Someone posted a link to a "are you ready for algebra" website at the curriculum board just a few days ago.

 

What about some of the Art of Problem Solving books?

 

Capt_Uhura

[PeterPan]

The AoPS curriculum stuff is for algebra up. I'll probably order some with my next Rainbow order, just to get started working through them. The Math Olympiad books AoPS sells I already got (from them). They're fun. I photocopied them, put blank pages between, and comb-bound, making nice workbooks to cover two years. We just do one problem a day, nothing hefty. They tend to take several minutes and are not arithmeticky. We're doing CWP a chapter a day (just the challenging problems portion), and that's good practice. We've just gone back to them. We tried them ages ago, didn't click, and now she's actually enjoying them. That's actually what gives me the biggest impetus to make some changes, seeing how much she enjoys it when I get the right stuff. It's just getting the right stuff that's the trick...

[forty-two]

I know that Myrtle wasn't a fan of the Key to Fractions books - she said something about how they just taught invert-and-multiply without any explanation as to why it works. So it might not have the conceptual focus you were wanting.

 

My first thought was this Russian math book. Quite a few people seem to use it after Singapore PM as something of a pre-algebra book. I believe it does negative numbers, and it certainly seems to have wonderful, conceptual problems.

 

Also, I was curious about Foerster's emphasis on "making the variable actually VARY." I've been reading several articles by Dr. Wu (lots of conceptual goodies in there!), and he makes the point that most math books make the whole idea of a variable terribly confusing and mysterious - they never define it properly - when actually a variable is just a number. That's why you can treat it just like a number - all the usual rules apply - because it *is* just a number. In fact, he says that a "variable" isn't really a formal mathematical concept, just a commonly used shorthand.

[PeterPan]

Well farbeit from me to contradict a Dr. Wu! LOL Actually, I was just gravitating to it because I felt it balanced out a weak point in my own understanding, when you try to make the transference from a variable as a single entity (or point when graphed) to a concept with multiple solutions, something that graphs with multiple options creating lines, curves, etc. I think you can swing too hard and go TOO simplistically the other way and then have them blow their minds when they start to graph stuff. I don't know, maybe that's not true. As long as we stay balanced, I don't think it hurts. And all people who master stuff think underlings make it too hard. I could say the same thing about quilting or sewing, but you wouldn't believe me. (You make it too hard, the machine does all the work.) :)

 

You know, I've read about that Russian math book on and off and never knew where it fit. I need to see if there are any sample pages around. When I went to the publisher website, I think it said it was oop.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I went back and looked, and with a little more perserverance found the samples had been right below the OOP warning. No, the russian math 6 looks totally yuck, sorry. I'm glad if someone else enjoys it. I'm all for mental stimulation, but it's just not doing it. It's under the content level she needs, and it's not really engaging. But that's just my impression as I look at it. Could be much better in person, but I'm having to many yuck reaction flags go up to even pursue it. But at least it's something eliminated! :)

[Blessedfamily]

Elizabeth,

 

I am in EXACT agreement with you on wanting a book that expands/explains conceptually. I have pretty much decided on Foerster's for Algebra, too, but need a quality Pre-algebra that will teach in the manner I want. In fact, your example of how he teaches make me more sure of my Algebra decision.

 

For us, maturity is an issue. DD is not ready to sit through extremely long problems, though I really think she could do Algebra now. I'm using Singapore's Discovering Math because DD has done Singapore's primary series (though I haven't actually seen it in person).

 

I have one suggestion for you, though it's only a patch. If I don't find a text that explains "the whys" as I require, then I'll get a supplemental book to do just that. It may not be a text, per se, but rather a book about math. I say it's a patch because I'd rather have the info in the instructional part of the text, but I'm not sure I can find such a program.

 

In fact DH is on his way home with a math book from the library right this second. If it's any good, I'll post back. If not, I 'll hang in there with you while we keep looking.

[Blessedfamily]

Ok, I went back and looked, and with a little more perserverance found the samples had been right below the OOP warning. No, the russian math 6 looks totally yuck, sorry. I'm glad if someone else enjoys it. I'm all for mental stimulation, but it's just not doing it. It's under the content level she needs, and it's not really engaging. But that's just my impression as I look at it. Could be much better in person, but I'm having to many yuck reaction flags go up to even pursue it. But at least it's something eliminated! :)

 

:svengo: Somewhere in Canada there is a lady named Karin, fainted dead away. She loves that book.

[PeterPan]

LOL Yvette, you crack me up! Well I had been in a mystique about the russian math 6 book too, but it just didn't appeal to me when I finally came to the age. I think the other thing is that I've been there, been in the schools, and I sort of see it a different way, not so worshippy.

 

I'll have to check my inbox, but I THINK I ordered a Dolciani pre-algebra a day or two ago. I was plugging away and clicking and looking at so much stuff, I've sort of lost track. I know I got a 1967 dolciani algebra 1 tm for cheap too, so that's cool. (The guy actually wrote me to confirm it was the tm, when I think it was listed under the student books, which had been my hope, using the tip around here to look for a pristine edition.) Turns out I learned algebra in the (insert years, hehe) with what was probably a mid-1980's Dolciani. I wasn't as blown away with my experience as others around here, so I'm happy to try Foerster. I just wanted to pick up that older dolciani to see how it compares and then compare it to Foerster.

 

It's funny you mention the living math thing. I'm realizing that's a whole area I should have pursued more carefully with her. I have a little list running of things I want to look for! :)

[Mary in GA]

I only skimmed the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm redundant. We used NEM 1 chapters 1-5 as pre-algebra for dc before going to Foerster's alg 1 which I love. It was demanding, solidified their math skills while promoting algebraic thinking, and seemed to work well.

 

Mary

[PeterPan]

Ok, I've never even seen NEM in person. I'll go look! :)

[Blessedfamily]

You know what I can't understand about NEM? According to the comparison chart at Singaporemath.com, it's the only one of Singapore's secondary math programs that starts with a review of the PM/elementary math series. And yet, those first four chapters are so dreaded, and everyone says once you get through them, it's OK.

 

I wonder if someone can explain why? Is it the number of problems? Is it boring? What is it?

[PeterPan]

I don't know. When I looked at the singapore samples, it didn't seem very clearly written. Conceptually it was interesting, but it was small print in b&w. Might be they're rusty on those skills. Might be the text. Who knows...

[PeterPan]

Not like I'm hard to please or anything, eh? :)

[8filltheheart]

Ok.......I have deliberately not responded so that you could ponder lots of other options. ;)

 

The classic alg/geo combo book is still available. It is the only one I have used. When they split the alg from the geo book, the contents remained the same; they were simply separated into different courses. The new books now have incorporated the "honors" content into the actual books themselves.

 

The concepts covered are taught clearly and "mathematically." (I'm really tired, so it is hard for me to think how to describe.........but essentially they are explained in a way reminscient of showing carrying and borrowing with cuisenaire rods, etc.) The explanations for negative numbers, factoring polynomials, slope-intercept formula, and basic geometry rules like angles, etc are explained very concretely which makes them very accessible for younger kids. The pages are mostly blank with just 10-15 problems per page.

 

You absolutely do not need the blocks.

 

My kids have had no problem jumping from MUS directly in Foerster. I think the fact that they understand what they are doing concerning the very basics in both alg and geo has made the delving into "real" alg/geo that much easier.

 

HTH

[Blessedfamily]

....

You absolutely do not need the blocks.

 

......

 

HTH

 

I meant to ask you about that. When you recommended it before, I went to the site and the ordering page said something about a kit, so I passed. Thanks for the information.

[Capt_Uhura]

momof 7 - I've lost track of this conversation. To what are you referring?

 

thanks,

Capt_Uhura

[Matryoshka]

I don't know. When I looked at the singapore samples, it didn't seem very clearly written. Conceptually it was interesting, but it was small print in b&w. Might be they're rusty on those skills. Might be the text. Who knows...

 

I like the look of Singapore's Discovering Mathematics much better. :001_smile: That's what we're using before going into Foresters and/or LOF.

[LaJuana]

...BJU's Pre-algebra book after BJU 6 and before Foerster's Algebra. It continues to develop skills introduced in the elementary BJU series, but it also goes deeper in application. With my older children I went straight from BJU 6 into Foerster's, but I think they would have benefited from at least half a year in BJU Pre-algebra before Foerster's. Without the prealgebra, my children had some weaknesses in dealing with negative numbers and exponents that slowed us down in the first half of Foerster's. The BJU Pre-algebra book covers a lot of really excellent material using a method that would be familiar to your children after completing BJU 6.

 

There is a new edition due out in the spring, and I don't know anything about it, but I do love the older edition I have. You can see the table of contents of the older edition here: http://www.bjupress.com/product/236091?path=70130&samplePage=#lookInside . I am even using my BJU Pre-algebra book to help a student who has been out of high school for a few years study for SAT exams. It is an excellent book to prepare a child to tackle Foerster's. I wish I would have used it with all my children.

 

I share your love of Foerster's Algebra. The beauty of its logical approach to teaching math and the depth of mathematical thinking it cultivates makes it one of my favorite textbooks ever published.

[Kareni]

Nice to see you posting again, LaJuana. I've always enjoyed reading what you have to say.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Blessedfamily]

momof 7 - I've lost track of this conversation. To what are you referring?

 

thanks,

Capt_Uhura

 

Not momof7, but she's referring to the MUS algebra/geo combo book which is now discontinued, but still available.

[PeterPan]

Thanks LaJuana, sticking with the BJU is definitely something I'm considering!

[LaJuana]

...I would skip BJU 7. I don't think it's necessary for a student who has mastered BJU 6. The Pre-algebra book is BJU's suggested 8th grade level, and a much better text.

[PeterPan]

You know what I can't get a feel for is how much of the new edition BJU math 7 is a repeat of 6 and how much is new or approaching the same stuff in a more sophisticated way. Definitely the old edition 7 is a repeat, rehash of 6. But I just don't know about the 7. And if it weren't so expensive to get the new 7, it wouldn't be such a toss-up, kwim? But I have a dolciani pre-algebra coming in the mail, if it ever gets here...

 

Well I have these options all written out in a little list. Hopefully something will gel in my mind!

[Kimber]

Hi Elizabeth,

 

I wish I had more to offer, but I dont. We didn't use the Dolciani pre algebra books because I just didn't have the time with moving and with adding my little ones.

 

Instead, I opted for Fred fractions and decimals followed by Chalkdust pre-algebra. LoF went really quickly for her, but Chalkdust is taking more time. But she's doing great because she is answering the critical thinking questions with very little problems.

 

To make sure she understands what's going on, I have her narrate her Chalkdust lessons back to me. It keeps me in the loop and it requires her to understand the terminology. It seems to be working. When she finishes the pre-algebra, we'll be moving on to Dolciani 60's algebra text. I think she'll have a great foundation, and if for some reason that doesn't work, we'll try Chalkdust. I like having a back up teacher in case my kids don't understand my way of doing things.

 

Good Luck in your decision,

 

Kimberly

[PeterPan]

Kimber, thanks for taking the time to reply! I was just over at your blog searching to see how math was going for you. :) I keep mulling this back and forth. Hopefully it will be obvious when that dolciani pre-algebra comes.

[PeterPan]

The Dolciani pre-algebra came, and I think I can make it do. I'm not sure it's the only thing or even best thing, but at this point I don't want to waste a lot of money buying 5 things, only to realize the $5 option would have worked just fine, kwim? It's fine, and dd thought it looked fun. It's a change from BJU, which we desperately need. Now the only irony will be if it turns out she likes Dolciani so much that she'd rather stick with it for alg. 1 than go to Foerster, hehe...