Unschooling? Neglect? I don't know...

[Stacy in NJ]

It seems like she would almost prefer the option was taken out of her hands and was forced to put them in PS. She feels too guilty to put them in PS herself, but she doesn't want to to school them herself either.

 

Maybe I do need to be a little frank with her and just ask her what she needs from me. If I lived there I would be more than happy to tutor her kids and help her out.

 

Talk to her. It sounds like you have a gentle touch and you can approach her with love and grace. But do do it. It may be the push she needs to find a better situation.

 

One suggestion. How would her dc feel about trying school? Can you suggest that it may be time to allow the children some input into where their educated?

 

"DSister, Since I'm so new to homeschooling with my little ones, I'm wondering whether I'll homeschool through middle and high school. At what point have you given your dc choices about public verses homeschool?"

[mom2abcd]

As her family, we have debated whether or not to call authorities on her, or if that would even help? I don't know the laws for her state (GA). We have opted not to call, of course, but still I wonder. It seems like she would almost prefer the option was taken out of her hands and was forced to put them in PS. She feels too guilty to put them in PS herself, but she doesn't want to to school them herself either.

 

Maybe I do need to be a little frank with her and just ask her what she needs from me. If I lived there I would be more than happy to tutor her kids and help her out.

 

Oh, don't call the authorities on her! That won't help anything!

 

If I were you, I'd research (ask here;o) ... or at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RaisingSL4Life/ to find all the great ways there are for kids to get an education without a lot of parent involvement. Then present them to your sister and brother-in-law. I would pull bil aside and have a big talk with him to help him explain the options and your concerns.

 

ACE is a curriculum that I've heard kids can do very independently. Of course, a parent would still need to hold kids accountable to working through their workbooks.

 

Here are some links that might be helpful:

http://largefamilylogistics.lifewithchrist.org/permalink/23614

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACEhomeschoolingsupport/

http://www.pennywiselearning.com/ACE-School-of-Tomorrow.html'>http://www.pennywiselearning.com/ACE-School-of-Tomorrow.html'>http://www.pennywiselearning.com/ACE-School-of-Tomorrow.html'>http://www.pennywiselearning.com/ACE-School-of-Tomorrow.html

http://www.abbahomeschool.com/ace.html

http://www.pennywiselearning.com/ACE-School-of-Tomorrow.html

 

Do what you can to help and encourage your sister. Maybe that includes encouragement to go to the doctor and get on meds.

 

Take time for your sister. Find out what TJE is about. http://www.tjed.org/ Find out what appeals to her about it. Find out if she lacks follow-through or what she thinks the problem is.

 

There is a lot you can do and calling the authorities should not even be at the bottom of the list, IMHO.

[shinyhappypeople]

Honestly, I'd focus on helping her address her mental health issues first and foremost. Therapy, medication, whatever it takes.

 

Next time she is venting I'd ask, "If you could afford a self-teaching program like ACE (or DVD course, whatever), would you be interested in getting it for your kids?" If she says yes, is there a way that you and your extended family could pitch in and help her get it?

 

Also, maybe you could shoot her an email "I came across this cool spelling/history/whatever curriculum. It looks like kids work through it independently. Just passing along the info in case you or your kids are interested...."

[Annie Laurie]

Even after 20 + years of homeschooling. I don't pretend to understand some methods. But I would never, ever put my nose in another parents , even my sibling or adult child, business. We as a homeschooling society will lose something very dear, if we start regulating / reporting the lack of, or how others teach. Thank goodness I live in Texas, we have no laws per se.

 

It is a parents right to choose how, when and with what, to teach a child.

 

ITA, Jana.

[Sputterduck]

I'm kind of posting and running here and don't have the time at the moment to read the whole thread, but TJE stresses not to do formal learning from birth-8 years old. Sounds like she is doing just that, no?

[stripe]

Another thing I have learned is that those who wish help or suggestions from others, WILL ASK FOR IT !!!

Indeed -- so I am glad that hmsmith is taking this so seriously, and handling it with such care.

[Annie Laurie]

I agree about seeing if she'd be open to some materials the kids could use mostly independently, like ACE or CLE or suggesting some online resources like Spelling City. She'd have to make sure they were doing it and spend a small part of the day checking work, but it wouldn't be very time consuming overall.

[Melabella]

It does not sound as though your sister is abiding by GA home school law (4.5 hrs/day of the "core" subjects); however, there is no real supervision of that part of the law and there are surely many unschoolers in GA.

 

Does she have the children tested every three years as mandated by GA law? The scores do not have to be reported, but if she is having them tested and they are at grade level, then maybe there is no need to worry. Although, I would doubt that an 8 or 9-year old who is just learning to read and do basic math would be at grade level.

 

Georgia does offer free K-12 (google Georgia Virtual Academy) if she would consider that as an option. It is very controversial in my group, but it seems like it would be better than what she is providing.

[Ellie]

There's a big difference between YOU observing and thinking it doesn't look like your idea of school, and HER telling you she thinks they're behind and she's struggling and hates it, etc. If she's ASKING you, then give her advice. In the first post it sounds like "she unschools, is that neglect?" which is no. With the update it sounds like a very different situation where she feels like something is wrong. If she's asking for help, then give it. If she's happy with unschooling, let her be.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[RanchGirl]

As her family, we have debated whether or not to call authorities on her, or if that would even help?

 

This would not help in any way, shape, or form. Truly. Either it's a minor intrusion or a major headache for your sister, but either way it will not help the kids unless they are being physically abused and would be better off taking their chances in the foster care system. Even then it's unlikely to be good for the kids.

 

If she is truly overwhelmed and doesn't want to homeschool, why wouldn't she just put them in school? It's free, and it's relatively easy if you want to be hands off. This doesn't make sense to me at all. Unless you think she is mentally unstable and unable to make any decisions at all?

 

If you want to help your sister, ask her how you can help her. Maybe she needs you to watch the kids while she takes a week's vacation to re-think everything and consider public school/other options. Maybe she needs self-directed curriculum and your family could chip in and help get the kids organized. Maybe she needs a part-time nanny/tutor, or meals in the freezer. All are things you could help her with. But she almost certainly does not need social services harassing her, invading her home, and threatening to take away her kids. Which is all they will do.

 

ETA: as another poster suggested, helping her with any possible depression would probably be the best way to go. And I applaud you for just listening to her since it sounds like she needs someone to listen. But she would probably feel horribly betrayed if she knew you were considering calling authorities. I understand the desire to be non-confrontational and good listener, but it would be better to speak up to her about your concerns, even risking offending her, rather than calling social services.

Edited November 5, 2009 by RanchGirl

[RanchGirl]

(from LittleIzumi)

There's a big difference between YOU observing and thinking it doesn't look like your idea of school, and HER telling you she thinks they're behind and she's struggling and hates it, etc. If she's ASKING you, then give her advice. In the first post it sounds like "she unschools, is that neglect?" which is no. With the update it sounds like a very different situation where she feels like something is wrong. If she's asking for help, then give it. If she's happy with unschooling, let her be.

 

I agree.... repeat back to her what you have heard her say her problems are and ask her directly how you can help her overcome them. What does she think she needs to do to turn this around?

[SandKsmama]

Short answer - I *totally* understand - have an almost eerily similar situation in my own family. The person in my family who did this truly was NOT unschooling, she just wasn't "schooling" at all (well, except for the MUS LOL). I'm not anti-unschooling, but there is a *big* difference between the two. Currently, the teen and pre-teen in my situation are doing SOS after years of literally nothing...they are 4-5 grade levels behind, but at least they are *finally* doing something! The younger kids do nothing. Really. Even the MUS isn't *every* single day - it's just kinda when they get it out and do it on their own. There is no direction, no teaching whatsoever. SO, so frustrating (and the fact that I have kids the same ages as some of hers makes the difference very glaring at times)

 

However, it comes down to, these are her children, and I believe that the choice to educate or not (and how) is hers, and not my business. It grieves me (and angers my husband:-), but we really just don't talk about it, unless she brings something up, then I offer advice or help as I'm asked for it.

 

(((Hugs))) Totally understand!! Really I do!

[Lovedtodeath]

I haven't told her she's neglecting them. This is what she tells ME. It's very uncomfortable; I try to stay away from the topic actually because I don't want to make her feel any worse than she already does.

I called her yesterday to ask her about McGuffey Readers and how she uses them because I remembered she bought them a long time ago. She never used them and sold some of them. I told her that I was going to use the second reader for copy work soon. She thought that was a good idea and thought maybe that would help with her kid's spelling... then she just went on and on about how neglectful she is with their education.

 

Anyway, it's frustrating, but I do keep my opinions to myself. That's why she still talks to me about it. I just don't see a way I can help her.

I have been that person! My sister has been that person! IMStrongO the best thing you can do for her is get her to seek treatment for depression. It sounds to me like this would help everything and is desperately needed. I am on a very safe natural depression remedy (yes, not all natural things are safe, but this one is!) if you are wanting options other than prescription drugs.

 

I was also going to suggest Elizabeth's resources, but I see that she already did that.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Faithr]

Where is the husband in all this? He's the one insisting the kids are homeschooled, right? Is he aware of what is going on? Does he realize his wife is suffering from depression?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

However, it comes down to, these are her children, and I believe that the choice to educate or not (and how) is hers, and not my business. It grieves me (and angers my husband:-), but we really just don't talk about it, unless she brings something up, then I offer advice or help as I'm asked for it.

 

 

 

I am not sure if any parent has the right ethically not to educate their children IMHO. To me that is educational neglect and depending on the circumstances I would be tempted to notify Children and Youth.

[Joy at Home]

I am not sure if any parent has the right ethically not to educate their children IMHO. To me that is educational neglect and depending on the circumstances I would be tempted to notify Children and Youth.

 

 

I would think long and hard before crossing that line. Education means different things to different people. What if the neighbor who does not understand homeschooling called Children and Youth on your family because your kids were playing in the yard during school hours? It is a big deal to call Children and Youth and I hope you would thing twice about going that route.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[Joy at Home]

ITA, Jana.

 

 

Thank you, Jana. Very well said.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[birchbark]

I also was going to ask if she had her DH's support in homeschooling or her approach. That makes a big difference to a wife's peace of mind.

 

While I wouldn't advise meddling, if she is sincerely asking for input I would introduce her to less teacher-intensive curricula, such as CLE or Abeka videos or SOS. I have a friend who discovered the Abeka videos last year and says it is the only way she could homeschool. She recognizes her tendencies and limitations and works with that.

[zaichiki]

She has had problems with depression...

 

 

She needs to NOT homeschool because of her emotional/mental condition, IMO.

 

 

She's not abusive. Just emotionally unstable.

 

As her family, we have debated whether or not to call authorities on her, or if that would even help? I don't know the laws for her state (GA). We have opted not to call, of course, but still I wonder. It seems like she would almost prefer the option was taken out of her hands and was forced to put them in PS. She feels too guilty to put them in PS herself, but she doesn't want to to school them herself either.

 

 

 

If she has mental illness or depression... if she is emotionally unstable... whose responsibility is it to look after what's best for the children?

 

I wish my aunts and uncles had stepped in and stood up for what was best for me when I was a kid. My mother couldn't do it.

 

Instead, they looked the other way.

[Heidi]

While I wouldn't advise meddling, if she is sincerely asking for input I would introduce her to less teacher-intensive curricula, such as CLE or Abeka videos or SOS. I have a friend who discovered the Abeka videos last year and says it is the only way she could homeschool. She recognizes her tendencies and limitations and works with that.

 

Hmm... I will definitely ask her if she has considered these. SOS looks especially good since she can choose which topics she wants to buy. If she likes to do school by putting on a video like MUS, this would be her best bet! Thanks for the tip!

[stripe]

I wish my aunts and uncles had stepped in and stood up for what was best for me when I was a kid. My mother couldn't do it.

 

Instead, they looked the other way.

Yes, we do have a responsibility to our nieces and nephews and other relatives, and if parents are neglecting a child, we must help them. I think that it would be more effective in most cases, and certainly faster, if the relatives were to offer help, rather than waiting until they "can't take it any more" and then calling the authorities. Remember that couple that didn't feed their own newborn and it starved to death? Wouldn't it have been helpful for an auntie or a grandma to advise the mother to either breastfeed or bottlefeed WAY MORE OFTEN, and encourage them to do the right thing to take care of their children? Helping avoid child neglect and endangerment is something we can do on our own in many cases, and gently, by helping others instead of standing by and refusing to get involved.

 

I sort of think the people with knee-jerk reactions that this is a parental autonomy thing haven't read all that the OP has reported about interactions with her sister. The OP says that sister has come to her TELLING HER that her own children are not getting educated well enough and she is not happy with her own ability to homeschool them. In such a case I think it would be her duty to respond to her sister's pleas for help.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Yes, we do have a responsibility to our nieces and nephews and other relatives, and if parents are neglecting a child, we must help them. I think that it would be more effective in most cases, and certainly faster, if the relatives were to offer help, rather than waiting until they "can't take it any more" and then calling the authorities. Remember that couple that didn't feed their own newborn and it starved to death? Wouldn't it have been helpful for an auntie or a grandma to advise the mother to either breastfeed or bottlefeed WAY MORE OFTEN, and encourage them to do the right thing to take care of their children? Helping avoid child neglect and endangerment is something we can do on our own in many cases, and gently, by helping others instead of standing by and refusing to get involved.

 

I sort of think the people with knee-jerk reactions that this is a parental autonomy thing haven't read all that the OP has reported about interactions with her sister. The OP says that sister has come to her TELLING HER that her own children are not getting educated well enough and she is not happy with her own ability to homeschool them. In such a case I think it would be her duty to respond to her sister's pleas for help.

 

:iagree:

 

I think the need here is to step up, in gentle love, and engage her in conversation about it. Find out what she really wants, maybe she doesn't know. Not everyone who wants help flat out asks for it so, in this situation in particular, I wouldn't be so passive. Considering her confessions and feelings about what is going on - she needs help, her children need help, and she needs someone loving enough to help her. Help her ask the questions an intending homeschooler needs to ask themselves (I know she's been doing this for years but she really needs to do some serious back stepping) and then help her find what will work for them. I wouldn't be backward in asking if she wants to put them in public school or about her husband's feelings on all these things.

 

Be her advocate, her children's advocate. I would consider passivity in this kind of situation that you have described to be participating for worse in what is going on. There is so much that could be done that to TRY to influence things for the better without even a thought of reporting them to some authority which seems like a cop-out to me. I don't mean to be harsh at all, I just wonder if maybe what you need is encouragement to get involved in the lives of people you love in a world of 'mind your own business' or 'let an authority deal with it'.

[StartingOver]

I am not sure if any parent has the right ethically not to educate their children IMHO. To me that is educational neglect and depending on the circumstances I would be tempted to notify Children and Youth.

 

There are parents who don't teach anything till 8 or 10 or even 12 years old or after. This style is sometimes called interest led. When a child asks to learn to read, they are taught. A child can learn without reading, they can listen to audio books, they can be read aloud to. There are those parents that don't teach anything at all, but just provide a rich enviroment for learning. There are parents who have their Kindergarteners learning Latin. There are those who teach only from texts, or from literature. There are some who teach only from software. There are some that truly believe that children will learn, with no help from a parent, what they need to know in life, based on their interests.

 

Exactly which of these would you call Children and Youth on? They all believe they are doing what is best for their children, and anyone of them could believe you are neglecting your children because you aren't doing the exact same thing that they are.

 

Every parent has the right to educate their child how, when, where, they want. To each their own.

[Harriet Vane]

I would absolutely not call CPS unless you think there is a physical risk of harm to the kids. If they are being beaten, s@xually molested, or criminally neglected (like starving), then a call is in their best interests. Otherwise, a CPS report will be unjustifiably traumatic. I have had to call CPS in the past, and have supported others in doing so--an apathetic homeschooling mom does not justify a report.

 

I would steer her towards some other options--SOS or another electronic medium are great ideas. K12 is another quality option.

 

I would also advocate investigating and responding to any depression concerns. Does she need meds? Light therapy? A walk in the morning? Accountability?

[8filltheheart]

There are parents who don't teach anything till 8 or 10 or even 12 years old or after. This style is sometimes called interest led. When a child asks to learn to read, they are taught. A child can learn without reading, they can listen to audio books, they can be read aloud to. There are those parents that don't teach anything at all, but just provide a rich enviroment for learning. There are parents who have their Kindergarteners learning Latin. There are those who teach only from texts, or from literature. There are some who teach only from software. There are some that truly believe that children will learn, with no help from a parent, what they need to know in life, based on their interests.

 

Exactly which of these would you call Children and Youth on? They all believe they are doing what is best for their children, and anyone of them could believe you are neglecting your children because you aren't doing the exact same thing that they are.

 

Every parent has the right to educate their child how, when, where, they want. To each their own.

 

While I don't agree with sister's approach, I agree with your response. I don't see how there is evidence of educational neglect. Poor spelling does not equate with educational neglect. I have had 2 children that have spelled on a 3rd or 4th grade level while being academically advanced in high school course work. Poor spelling does not necessarily mean they are not being taught. It might simply mean they can't spell.

 

The OP only sees the kids 1x/yr. She is making judgments based on conversations with someone who is admittedly depressed. If I were talking to someone close right now, I might come across as not educating my kids b/c I am not sleeping, tired to the core, disliking homeschooling at the moment (especially high school. I am really hating teaching high school right now and I am not doing as good of a job as I should).......but that does not mean I am educationally neglecting my kids.

 

Educational neglect is a serious allegation. MY definition of education would mean that the vast majority of homeschoolers are committing educational neglect based on MY view of academically stringent requirements. However, I do not believe that they actually fall into that category. A disservice to their children.....yes. But not much more than that. They may have completely different educational objectives/goals for their children than I have.

 

This is an area where I would not interfere unless a lot more concrete evidence was readily available than has been posted.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

There are parents who don't teach anything till 8 or 10 or even 12 years old or after. This style is sometimes called interest led. When a child asks to learn to read, they are taught. A child can learn without reading, they can listen to audio books, they can be read aloud to. There are those parents that don't teach anything at all, but just provide a rich enviroment for learning. There are parents who have their Kindergarteners learning Latin. There are those who teach only from texts, or from literature. There are some who teach only from software. There are some that truly believe that children will learn, with no help from a parent, what they need to know in life, based on their interests.

 

Exactly which of these would you call Children and Youth on? They all believe they are doing what is best for their children, and anyone of them could believe you are neglecting your children because you aren't doing the exact same thing that they are.

 

Every parent has the right to educate their child how, when, where, they want. To each their own.

 

There is a difference between what you are talking about and "not educating" at all. There are people who follow an interest led philosophy of education and there are those who DON'T educate - like my best friend's mother who wouldn't get out of bed to teach the children who were begging her for school work each morning.

 

Maybe the person you were responding was calling unschooling or the like "not educating" but that's not how I read the comment.

[StartingOver]

There is a difference between what you are talking about and "not educating" at all. There are people who follow an interest led philosophy of education and there are those who DON'T educate - like my best friend's mother who wouldn't get out of bed to teach the children who were begging her for school work each morning.

 

Maybe the person you were responding was calling unschooling or the like "not educating" but that's not how I read the comment.

 

 

How on earth can you judge, you don't know this lady ? You can't judge how a person teaches unless you are in their home daily, and even then, what right do you have to judge ?

 

Out of here, my soap box is going to swallow me soon.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I didn't judge. If you read correctly, you would have noticed I wasn't making any reference to this specific person being asked about in the thread.

 

ETA that neither have I, in any of my posts, advocated calling any authority on the specific person under discussion.

Edited November 6, 2009 by RecumbentHeart

[QuirkyKapers]

I agree with several things I have read here:

 

1)Don't report to CPS

I would talk to her more frankly first before I would consider this.

 

2) Ask questions:

What is her typical day like?

What is it that makes her think she isn't teaching or good at teaching?

If she could do anything she wanted regarding school, what would her day look like?

What is it her children like to do? How is she supporting their interests?

 

3)How connected is she with other unschoolers?

I would encourage her to try and connect with other unschoolers where she lives. If that isn't possible, than online. How much has she read about that approach? Does it really gel with her? Pershaps she needs to redefine what she is as a homeschooler.

 

For me, I found I really like the idea of unschooling, mainly because I think the base is wanting children learn to love learning and helping this happen by suppling them with different means to learn what they love! However, I realized I also need to have things that I am doing where I can see the results of what is being worked on. So, I am eclectic, child led and traditional in what I do. It's crazy but it works!

 

I know sometimes I feel like I am not teaching or a good teacher. This especially happens when I ask other home schoolers about what they are doing. I don't know why it is that I jump to I am not doing a good enough job because I am not doing A, B, C etc. Rather than thinking my approach is different than others, but it isn't bad or faulty. Of course, the benefit in talking with others is to challenge myself to realistically and honestly evaluate what I am doing and do something more or different if the need is there.

 

4) Depression could certainly be a factor here. It can be an endless battle when you want to do something, have a picture in your head of what that something is, but just can't get it out of your head to do it.....It can be a battle between wanting to take control of things but being too overwhelmed to know where to begin....

 

Well, that is my 2 cents worth. I don't know if it is helpful or not:)

Good luck as you figure out how to best interact with your sister when these conversations happen!

[KathyBC]

While I don't agree with sister's approach, I agree with your response. I don't see how there is evidence of educational neglect. Poor spelling does not equate with educational neglect. I have had 2 children that have spelled on a 3rd or 4th grade level while being academically advanced in high school course work. Poor spelling does not necessarily mean they are not being taught. It might simply mean they can't spell.

 

The OP only sees the kids 1x/yr. She is making judgments based on conversations with someone who is admittedly depressed. If I were talking to someone close right now, I might come across as not educating my kids b/c I am not sleeping, tired to the core, disliking homeschooling at the moment (especially high school. I am really hating teaching high school right now and I am not doing as good of a job as I should).......but that does not mean I am educationally neglecting my kids.

 

Educational neglect is a serious allegation. MY definition of education would mean that the vast majority of homeschoolers are committing educational neglect based on MY view of academically stringent requirements. However, I do not believe that they actually fall into that category. A disservice to their children.....yes. But not much more than that. They may have completely different educational objectives/goals for their children than I have.

 

This is an area where I would not interfere unless a lot more concrete evidence was readily available than has been posted.

 

 

VERY well said.

[countrykiddos]

I can't believe that any homeschooler would even consider calling the authorities on another homeschooler because they don't believe their children are being educated correctly, especially if the mother is overwhelmed. Is the government school system really doing any better?

I'm shocked that anyone would suggest that she even consider this.

[DB in NJ]

Removed my comments because my answer is biased due to the fact that this is how my sister "taught" her kids, who I now have since she moved away to Canada on Valentine's Day to be with the love of her life (who she had only met a week before), leaving her husband and children. My niece is 14 and is working below the level of my 5th grade son. My nephew had done 7 pages of math all year and nothing else. Nothing. He's flourishing now, but my niece is set in her ways and refusing to learn from me. She's at least 4 years behind in her work, thanks to my sister's "homeschool philosophy" a/k/a neglect.

 

Sorry. Do I sound bitter?!?! ;)

Edited November 6, 2009 by DB in NJ

[StartingOver]

Sounds like neglect to me. These kids will suffer due to their mother's laziness.

 

I don't see how you can judge.

 

I know a young man, that only played on the computer and video games. His mother was an unschooler. He is now employed as a programmer making a great living, and never did a lick of formal education.

 

It went against everything I think about homeschooling, but it worked for him.

 

I don't get how anyone can judge another homeschooler?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There are parents who don't teach anything till 8 or 10 or even 12 years old or after. This style is sometimes called interest led. When a child asks to learn to read, they are taught. A child can learn without reading, they can listen to audio books, they can be read aloud to. There are those parents that don't teach anything at all, but just provide a rich enviroment for learning. There are parents who have their Kindergarteners learning Latin. There are those who teach only from texts, or from literature. There are some who teach only from software. There are some that truly believe that children will learn, with no help from a parent, what they need to know in life, based on their interests.

 

Exactly which of these would you call Children and Youth on? They all believe they are doing what is best for their children, and anyone of them could believe you are neglecting your children because you aren't doing the exact same thing that they are.

 

Every parent has the right to educate their child how, when, where, they want. To each their own.

 

For the most part I agree to each his own and for the record I said that depending on the circumstances that I would consider calling children and youth for educational neglect. If I thought someone was truly not educating their children at all, then I would consider calling Children and Youth. Providing a rich learning environment and child-led are a completely different situations than not educating at all IMHO. I think that providing a rich learning environment is one way for early education. I see calling children and youth as a last resort and only to be done after serious consideration. I also understand home schoolers concern over parental rights to educate their children as they see fit. However, I think a line in the sand has to be drawn some where and IMO it would be when parents are not educating at all. I just do not see how parents would have the right to not.educate.their.children.at.all.

 

As far as the op and her sister, I do not know if it is educational neglect at all and I only suggested that she try gingerly broaching the subject with her sister since she felt the kids were way behind and such.

 

My 2 cents:)

Edited November 6, 2009 by priscilla
spelling

[DB in NJ]

I don't see how you can judge.

 

I know a young man, that only played on the computer and video games. His mother was an unschooler. He is now employed as a programmer making a great living, and never did a lick of formal education.

 

It went against everything I think about homeschooling, but it worked for him.

 

I don't get how anyone can judge another homeschooler?

 

You're quick! I removed the statement that you quoted and replaced it with something else. Please go read what I said.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I can't believe that any homeschooler would even consider calling the authorities on another homeschooler because they don't believe their children are being educated correctly, especially if the mother is overwhelmed. Is the government school system really doing any better?

I'm shocked that anyone would suggest that she even consider this.

 

I would consider it if the circumstances were extreme in that no education was taking place at all and I knew the situation very well. Calling Children and Youth would only be done after serious consideration IMHO and frankly, I cannot imagine that I personally would ever be close enough to another family's situation to warrant a call to Children and Youth. However, in principle, I stand behind my words since even though I believe in parental rights and the ability to teach my own child. I just simply believe that there limits to my rights and that includes abuse and neglect.

Edited November 6, 2009 by priscilla

[DB in NJ]

I wanted to add that I AM judging my sister and the job she did (or lack thereof). It's pitiful. And her children are the ones who will pay for her laziness and neglect. I am in the PERFECT position to judge what she's done, but I agree with the other posters that we need more info from the OP regarding the situation she's referring to.

 

BTW, I had my suspicions about the way my sister was teaching her kids and what they were learning. When she left and I took over their teaching, my suspicions were confirmed.

 

I have a dear friend who unschooled her son. She was diligent in teaching him a lot about everything she could. She was attentive and supportive and interested and interesting. She truly invested her life in her boy and took a lot of time to take him to plays, take him to the library, make him write and discuss and debate at every opportunity. The only curriculum she used was Mortensen Math. He's now going to Drexel University, after taking a few years off from school to run his own ferrier business. I have seen successful unschooling, and while it's not my cuppa, I admire those who TRULY do it. I have no time, however, for people who hide behind the unschooling label in an attempt to validate their own laziness and neglect.

Edited November 6, 2009 by DB in NJ

[at the beach]

I just do not see how parents would have the right to not.educate.their.children.at.all.

 

My 2 cents:)

 

I do understand that we are all entitled to our opinion. :)

 

Mine is that I would tread carefully calling CPS in this situation. In fact, I wouldn't at all.

 

How come CPS doesn't step in when schools are engaging in educational neglect of children? :001_huh: There are SO many children who are suffering educational neglect within the school system, not to mention emotional neglect, bullying and a host of other things. Just my opinion. In the closet large city to where I live, there is a drop out rate of around 70% and many, many children never learn to read. :confused:

 

I also don't think I can educate anyone. I can teach, guide and lead but I can't forcibly educate anyone. A child can learn and take in what he is willing to take in or can process. Cliche though it is, a horse can be lead to water but can't be made to drink. Can you tell I am a Gatto fan?

 

Children will learn no matter what we do or don't do. They are sponges. They take things in, experience things, feel things. This naturally leads them to learn things about the world around them, about people, about life. I'm fairly sure Benjamin Franklin didn't have mom hovering over him with phonogram cards. The best thing we can do for our kids IMO is help them become interested and engaged in life by letting them explore and experience things. I think giving kids plenty of time to do nothing is one of the best things we can do for our kids, and I'm guilty of not doing this as much as I should due to a lot of extracurriculars. Kids need time to daydream and play, dig in the sand, walk in the ocean. Often brick and mortar schooling just sets kids up to learn how to do the whole garbage in/garbage out. I know kids in school and some I feel terribly sorry for. Nothing really interests them, they aren't passionate about much of anything as far as I can tell. They hate math thanks to Investigations. For them, anything that is hard is not worth the bother. They are very materialistically oriented. They do very well in school, too, but to what end? Sorry, I'd rather see them playing in a field of flowers all day making daisy chains. :tongue_smilie: Learning to read and do basic math isn't something that needs to take countless years. Yes, for some kids (including one of mine) it is a huge struggle (math due to LD's) but for the most part, it isn't all that time consuming to learn basic arithmetic or read. It can be done fairly quickly if one waits until a child is at the right age to grasp it quickly.

 

I will not underestimate the value of a child simply being in a home where he or she has their basic needs met, meaning fresh air, clothes and a warm bed, food on the table and love and affection. They are certainly learning something. Who am I to say they aren't? A mother who loves her children, who confides in her shortcomings to another family member as this poster stated about her relative, to me, that says this mom is invested in her children's lives. She may not be perfect, but I say it's a heck of a lot better start in life than many, many children whom CPS intervenes with that are facing lives with parents who struggle with drug addiction, abuse, etc. We aren't all dealt a fair hand as children. Doesn't mean we can't rise above it as adults. IMO it is easier to learn math as a teen or catch up on reading with no more than a library card than overcome a childhood that lacked love in the home. When a child has grown to adulthood being well-loved, there is much, much, much they can overcome and have a good life. It is the lives of kids who do not know what it is to have a parent tell them they are loved, to be held, to be nurtured, those are the children we need to worry about IMO.

 

Anyway, that's just my two cents. :001_smile:

[StartingOver]

You're quick! I removed the statement that you quoted and replaced it with something else. Please go read what I said.

 

Thanks for explaining. We do let personal feelings color the way we see things. I am sorry that your your family has been hurt.

[StartingOver]

I do understand that we are all entitled to our opinion. :)

 

Mine is that I would tread carefully calling CPS in this situation. In fact, I wouldn't at all.

 

How come CPS doesn't step in when schools are engaging in educational neglect of children? :001_huh: There are SO many children who are suffering educational neglect within the school system, not to mention emotional neglect, bullying and a host of other things. Just my opinion. In the closet large city to where I live, there is a drop out rate of around 70% and many, many children never learn to read. :confused:

 

I also don't think I can educate anyone. I can teach, guide and lead but I can't forcibly educate anyone. A child can learn and take in what he is willing to take in or can process. Cliche though it is, a horse can be lead to water but can't be made to drink. Can you tell I am a Gatto fan?

 

Children will learn no matter what we do or don't do. They are sponges. They take things in, experience things, feel things. This naturally leads them to learn things about the world around them, about people, about life. I'm fairly sure Benjamin Franklin didn't have mom hovering over him with phonogram cards. The best thing we can do for our kids IMO is help them become interested and engaged in life by letting them explore and experience things. I think giving kids plenty of time to do nothing is one of the best things we can do for our kids, and I'm guilty of not doing this as much as I should due to a lot of extracurriculars. Kids need time to daydream and play, dig in the sand, walk in the ocean. Often brick and mortar schooling just sets kids up to learn how to do the whole garbage in/garbage out. I know kids in school and some I feel terribly sorry for. Nothing really interests them, they aren't passionate about much of anything as far as I can tell. They hate math thanks to Investigations. For them, anything that is hard is not worth the bother. They are very materialistically oriented. They do very well in school, too, but to what end? Sorry, I'd rather see them playing in a field of flowers all day making daisy chains. :tongue_smilie: Learning to read and do basic math isn't something that needs to take countless years. Yes, for some kids (including one of mine) it is a huge struggle (math due to LD's) but for the most part, it isn't all that time consuming to learn basic arithmetic or read. It can be done fairly quickly if one waits until a child is at the right age to grasp it quickly.

 

I will not underestimate the value of a child simply being in a home where he or she has their basic needs met, meaning fresh air, clothes and a warm bed, food on the table and love and affection. They are certainly learning something. Who am I to say they aren't? A mother who loves her children, who confides in her shortcomings to another family member as this poster stated about her relative, to me, that says this mom is invested in her children's lives. She may not be perfect, but I say it's a heck of a lot better start in life than many, many children whom CPS intervenes with that are facing lives with parents who struggle with drug addiction, abuse, etc. We aren't all dealt a fair hand as children. Doesn't mean we can't rise above it as adults. IMO it is easier to learn math as a teen or catch up on reading with no more than a library card than overcome a childhood that lacked love in the home. When a child has grown to adulthood being well-loved, there is much, much, much they can overcome and have a good life. It is the lives of kids who do not know what it is to have a parent tell them they are loved, to be held, to be nurtured, those are the children we need to worry about IMO.

 

Anyway, that's just my two cents. :001_smile:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Sasha]

I am with Violet completely.

 

As someone who has had to deal with the government over false allegations (bigotted neighbors, long story) and family members who were unwilling to learn about homeschooling but quick to judge it ("I just don't understand how you can provide adequate socialization at home") I have to say that I can't imagine a situation in which I would call authorities because of educational choices.

[JenniferB]

Just saw your response about her phone confessions. If that's the case, why don't you direct her here to get some options she might actually like? If she's only ever done K12 and traditional stuff, it's no wonder she doesn't like teaching.

 

:confused: Have you used K12?

[nono]

You know, I was thinking about this situation this morning. I guess it would vary by state, but in NJ, the lack of compulsory education or its equivalent falls under the Board of Ed's auspices, not Youth & Family Services. Charges for not providing an equivalent education start with a $25 "disorderly" fine.

 

So, for New Jersey, not providing an education certainly isn't considered neglect according to the law.

[JenniferB]

In case no one has said this today: Thank you for stepping-in and loving these children enough to fight for them and their education. Your efforts will/ are making a profound difference in their lives.

 

Yes, I agree. God bless you Donna. You are awesome!

 

My dh was "homeschooled" as he played in the dirt all day outside his mother's place of work. She wouldn't let him go to school because of the evil government influences. Bitter much? Yep!

[Stacy in NJ]

Removed my comments because my answer is biased due to the fact that this is how my sister "taught" her kids, who I now have since she moved away to Canada on Valentine's Day to be with the love of her life (who she had only met a week before), leaving her husband and children. My niece is 14 and is working below the level of my 5th grade son. My nephew had done 7 pages of math all year and nothing else. Nothing. He's flourishing now, but my niece is set in her ways and refusing to learn from me. She's at least 4 years behind in her work, thanks to my sister's "homeschool philosophy" a/k/a neglect.

 

Sorry. Do I sound bitter?!?! ;)

 

This is good news about your nephew, though. :001_smile: How wonderful that he's doing well. I hope you find a way to reach your niece. :confused:

 

I admire you for taking on this responsibility.:grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

The OP only sees the kids 1x/yr. She is making judgments based on conversations with someone who is admittedly depressed. If I were talking to someone close right now, I might come across as not educating my kids b/c I am not sleeping, tired to the core, disliking homeschooling at the moment (especially high school. I am really hating teaching high school right now and I am not doing as good of a job as I should).......but that does not mean I am educationally neglecting my kids.

:iagree:Yep. I sound like I am not educating my daughter about half of the time.

 

You know, I was thinking about this situation this morning. I guess it would vary by state, but in NJ, the lack of compulsory education or its equivalent falls under the Board of Ed's auspices, not Youth & Family Services. Charges for not providing an equivalent education start with a $25 "disorderly" fine.

I am so glad someone finally said this. I was wondering this whole time who you would contact, because I was pretty sure it wasn't CPS. I know of one homeschooling mom who was forced to send her kids to Public School. They were not taken away, etc. It was many years ago and I, of course, do not know what agencies were involved.

 

It is confusing, though, because I know of another mom who is being threatened with CPS and possibly losing custody because of truancy.

[Renee in NC]

:iagree:Yep. I sound like I am not educating my daughter about half of the time.

 

I am so glad someone finally said this. I was wondering this whole time who you would contact, because I was pretty sure it wasn't CPS. I know of one homeschooling mom who was forced to send her kids to Public School. They were not taken away, etc. It was many years ago and I, of course, do not know what agencies were involved.

 

It is confusing, though, because I know of another mom who is being threatened with CPS and possibly losing custody because of truancy.

 

I think it depends on the state. About 10 years ago I knew someone whose ds was absent for weeks at a time. She was prosecuted criminally, but I do not think social services was involved. This was after one year of her ds (4th grade) missing several months of school (they moved and then moved back, but he never went to school.) He repeated the 4th grade and again he was truant many, many days. She was prosecuted at the end of that school year.

 

Of course, she told me it was not her fault because she left for work at 6am and couldn't insure that he actually got on the bus!:glare:

[Lovedtodeath]

She was prosecuted? What was the penalty/result?

[Renee in NC]

She was prosecuted? What was the penalty/result?

 

Probation, fines, minimal jail time. It was a serious case though as he missed so much school and she had numerous chances to make a change and she didn't. This was Harnett County, NC in 1999.

[tricia]

Being that she is your sister and you are truly concerned then I would say something in kindness. Otherwise, I would let it go. She and her hubby are the ONLY ones accountable before God for their children and no one else. Really, being even her sister I still don't see that the choices she makes really should matter to anyone else. I'm not saying this in a spirit of meaness by the way. I just think we should be more live and let live.