Sara R Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I have suspected my 6th grade daughter of being dyslexic since she was in 2nd grade. Still, we have plugged away, and she learned to read. She is still a bit below grade level, mostly because she skips small words and lines, but she does relatively well. Now spelling is the big challenge. She was struggling in math this time last year, because of (1) dyslexic symptoms: she would unknowingly reverse numbers and not recognize the need to borrow, (2) attention problems: she's easily distracted, and (3) Saxon wasn't a good fit for her: she needed more practice on the new concept in order for it to stick. I started homeschooling her part time last January to help her get caught up. She was successful in catching up in math, and wants to be in the charter school full time this year. Anyway, I got her tested for learning disabilities at the charter school. What came back is that her intelligence is average; her achievement is average; therefore there isn't a problem. But I'm looking at these subscores, and wondering if they don't show a problem. I'm also wondering if the achievement is as high as it is because of our intensive work. Could you look at these subscores and let me know if there's anything I should pursue here? WJ COG A.E S.S GIA 11-2 99 average Verbal Ability 11-11 103 average Thinking Ability 16-8 114 high average Cog. Efficiency 9-0 83 low average Phonemic Awareness 19 114 high average Working Memory 7-10 80 low average Cognitive Subtests A.E S.S Verbal Comprehension 11-11 103 average Visual-Auditory Learning 9-4 93 average Spatial Relations 16-5 106 average Sound Blending 21 114 high-average Concept Formation 18-9 116 superior Visual Matching 10-3 90 low average Numbers Reversed 6-11 79 below average Incomplete Words 16-1 108 high average Auditory Working Memory 9-3 89 low average Vis-Aud. Delayed 7-2 83 low average WJ ACH A.E S.S Oral Language 11-2 99 average Broad Reading 10-1 93 average Broad Math 11-4 99 average Basic Reading Skills 9-10 95 average Reading Comprehension 10-9 97 average Math Calculation 11-5 100 average Written Expression 11-0 98 average Achievement Subtests A.E S.S Letter-Word Identification 10-6 96 average Reading Fluency 9-5 88 low average Story Recall 21 111 high average Understanding Directions 9-9 95 average Calculation 11-9 102 average Math Fluency 10-11 96 average Spelling 8-5 83 low average Writing Fluency 10-9 95 average Passage Comprehension 11-1 99 average Applied Problems 11-2 99 average Writing Samples 12-5 104 average Story Recall-Delayed 8-9 90 average Word Attack 9-0 94 average Reading Vocabulary 10-5 96 average Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Did the tester review the results with you? When my kids were tested, the psychologist spent 3 hours with me going over the results and explaining them in detail. When a learning disability is successfully remediated, an achievement gap may not appear. My 8 yo was diagnosed with a reading disability even though her achievement tests showed that her skills were within the normal range (national norms; she's way behind by state standards) because even without the achievement gap, the psychologist could see the underlying issues as she worked with my dd. Our psychologist told us that even when an achievement gap does not exist, kids are still entitled to services and/or accomodations if they have a processing disorder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Anyway, I got her tested for learning disabilities at the charter school. What came back is that her intelligence is average; her achievement is average; therefore there isn't a problem. But I'm looking at these subscores, and wondering if they don't show a problem. I'm also wondering if the achievement is as high as it is because of our intensive work. I would say you are correct... if she had not worked intensively to improve she would have scored lower on the achievement portion. The scores, as you say, match. Average ability, average achievement. I would keep a close eye on her so that she doesn't lose what she gained with your intensive work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmo Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I wanted to add a couple of things. And first let me say, I am not very familiar with the Woodcock-Johnson Cognitive Assessment. But something I noticed was that there is a 30 point difference between her highest subtest scores and her lowest subtest scores. I am not sure exactly what each of those subtests assessed, but a "typical" child usually has scores that are relatively consistant accross the board, not with such a significant difference. Those "low" scores, will bring down her overall IQ score, often resulting in an "inaccurate" full-scale IQ. In just looking at those scores, I would think that she does have some sort of processing difficulty. I just wanted to add that I am a special education teacher. Katie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'd be tempted to try some cognitive enhancement therapies with her: BrainSkills or Learning Rx or Brainware Safari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Have you considered having her tested for a visual processing disorder? Her test scores look a lot like my DD's scores...we found out not too long afterwards that she had both a visual processing disorder as well as some other sensory issues. She went in for vision therapy and six months later was reading two grade levels above her real grade level...since she'd been reading a grade level lower, she gained an approximate of three grade levels through treatment! A full developmental vision exam will tell you if this is an issue for her as well as give you information on whether she is dyslexic. You can find a doctor at www.covd.org Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I have suspected my 6th grade daughter of being dyslexic since she was in 2nd grade. Still, we have plugged away, and she learned to read. She is still a bit below grade level, mostly because she skips small words and lines, but she does relatively well. Now spelling is the big challenge. She was struggling in math this time last year, because of (1) dyslexic symptoms: she would unknowingly reverse numbers and not recognize the need to borrow, (2) attention problems: she's easily distracted, and (3) Saxon wasn't a good fit for her: she needed more practice on the new concept in order for it to stick. I started homeschooling her part time last January to help her get caught up. She was successful in catching up in math, and wants to be in the charter school full time this year. Anyway, I got her tested for learning disabilities at the charter school. What came back is that her intelligence is average; her achievement is average; therefore there isn't a problem. But I'm looking at these subscores, and wondering if they don't show a problem. I'm also wondering if the achievement is as high as it is because of our intensive work. Could you look at these subscores and let me know if there's anything I should pursue here? WJ COG A.E S.S GIA 11-2 99 average Verbal Ability 11-11 103 average Thinking Ability 16-8 114 high average Cog. Efficiency 9-0 83 low average Phonemic Awareness 19 114 high average Working Memory 7-10 80 low average Cognitive Subtests A.E S.S Verbal Comprehension 11-11 103 average Visual-Auditory Learning 9-4 93 average Spatial Relations 16-5 106 average Sound Blending 21 114 high-average Concept Formation 18-9 116 superior Visual Matching 10-3 90 low average Numbers Reversed 6-11 79 below average Incomplete Words 16-1 108 high average Auditory Working Memory 9-3 89 low average Vis-Aud. Delayed 7-2 83 low average WJ ACH A.E S.S Oral Language 11-2 99 average Broad Reading 10-1 93 average Broad Math 11-4 99 average Basic Reading Skills 9-10 95 average Reading Comprehension 10-9 97 average Math Calculation 11-5 100 average Written Expression 11-0 98 average Achievement Subtests A.E S.S Letter-Word Identification 10-6 96 average Reading Fluency 9-5 88 low average Story Recall 21 111 high average Understanding Directions 9-9 95 average Calculation 11-9 102 average Math Fluency 10-11 96 average Spelling 8-5 83 low average Writing Fluency 10-9 95 average Passage Comprehension 11-1 99 average Applied Problems 11-2 99 average Writing Samples 12-5 104 average Story Recall-Delayed 8-9 90 average Word Attack 9-0 94 average Reading Vocabulary 10-5 96 average Possible vestiges of dyslexia are the spelling and reading fluency subscores. Still I would expect to see more variation between passage comprehension, letter word identification, and word attack in a child with dyslexia. I used to administer the WJ tests of achievement. I'm not familiar with the WJ cognitive test. Still, what jumps out at me is the working memory Cognitive Subtests A.E S.S Concept Formation 116 superior Thinking Ability 114 high average Sound Blending 114 high-average Phonemic Awareness 114 high average Incomplete Words 108 high average Spatial Relations 106 average Verbal Comprehension 103 average Verbal Ability 103 average Visual-Auditory Learning 93 average Visual Matching 90 low average Auditory Working Memory 89 low average Cog. Efficiency 83 low average Vis-Aud. Delayed 83 low average Working Memory 80 low average Numbers Reversed 79 below average Regrouping these, there is huge scatter. I don't know what cognitive efficiency means or what visual-auditory delayed means. You need to find out what each of these subtests measures. One thing that is clear is that working memory is a deficit. This has huge implications for school AND there are things that can be done about it. I'd try Brainware Safari first because it is inexpensive. It made a clear difference for my ds. (You can get it for less than $100 through Homeschool Buyers' Coop.) Cogmed has the best empirical evidence of any educational/cognitive intervention I've seen. It's expensive though-- a couple thousand dollars. Read up on working memory and you'll see how much of a role it plays. I'd go back and bug the examiner until she can explain the groupings of the subtests to you. IOW, you want to know the commonalities of the ones dd did best on and what the ones she did worst on had in common. I would also suggest taking these results to a neuropsych for additional testing as he or she recommends. The low working memory is characteristic of ADD, especially when combined with slow processing skills (that is a grouping on the WISC IV that involves visual motor speed.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thanks everyone! I'll look into visual processing disorder and Brainware Safari. Four years ago, I had a developmental vision evaluation for her. They said she needed vision therapy, but we couldn't afford it. Does strength in phonics rule out dyslexia? She was able to sound out words at age 4 without much difficulty, and she scored well on the phonics part of the test. She's had 3 years of Spalding phonograms at school, plus Phonics Pathways reading instruction from me. Her problems have always been more visual: keeping her eyes on the right part of the page, skipping letters, words, and lines. The notch-cut-out-of-the-index-card idea works well for her when she is willing to do it. She has additional undiagnosed problems: weird oral grammar, making it hard for her to get her point across to people, and weakening her writing and ability to memorize; ADD (not hyperactive or oppositional, just spacey), and probably Aspergers (intense interests, pacing/running in a room and talking to self). I meet with the tester tomorrow. It sounds like I'm not going to be able to get a label for her this time around, but the teacher and I can team up to tweak her curriculum so she continues to progress. Planned tweaks in spelling and writing: add dictation and review words to her spelling list; write a summary paragraph per day in lieu of a literature worksheet. She worked on dictation and narration with me at home last year. I think/hope she's ready to write her own narrations. She'll review math at home with me for a few minutes each morning so she doesn't forget what she has already learned but Saxon hasn't reintroduced yet. One reason I was hoping for a label with her is that it would make it easier for her to navigate the big junior high this year. So far we've gotten by with communicating with the teacher, but that's harder in junior high. However, I just found out about a different core knowledge charter school nearby that goes up to 8th grade, small school, likely socially better for her than the big junior high. We'll see if that works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Does strength in phonics rule out dyslexia? She was able to sound out words at age 4 without much difficulty, and she scored well on the phonics part of the test. She's had 3 years of Spalding phonograms at school, plus Phonics Pathways reading instruction from me. Her problems have always been more visual: keeping her eyes on the right part of the page, skipping letters, words, and lines. The notch-cut-out-of-the-index-card idea works well for her when she is willing to do it. I don't know about any of the other challenges you mentioned, but the strength in phonics sounds like my dd. She has dyslexia. Check out this link. (Did you know there were different TYPES of dyslexia? I never knew.) http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/dyseidetic.htm Look, specifically, at visual dyslexia. Do the symptoms fit at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well, I knew she wouldn't "qualify" because of her test scores. But I was hoping I could get them to work on spelling on her (much lower) level, rather than the class's level [like the teacher had already agreed, ugh!], and add in dictation spelling tests and review words...nope. Apparently Spalding says that they have to do direct instruction for the whole class at once? It doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't recognize that some kids need a lot more drill and practice in order to progress, especially in spelling. Some kids need no instruction at all and others need an intensive program. They will look into more details, and let me know what they find out on Wednesday. Spelling is a high priority as far as I'm concerned, so we'll figure out some way to make it work, even if it means me pulling her out of class and working with her at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I wanted to add a couple of things. And first let me say, I am not very familiar with the Woodcock-Johnson Cognitive Assessment. But something I noticed was that there is a 30 point difference between her highest subtest scores and her lowest subtest scores. I am not sure exactly what each of those subtests assessed, but a "typical" child usually has scores that are relatively consistant accross the board, not with such a significant difference. Those "low" scores, will bring down her overall IQ score, often resulting in an "inaccurate" full-scale IQ. In just looking at those scores, I would think that she does have some sort of processing difficulty. I just wanted to add that I am a special education teacher. Katie :iagree: I noted working memory area was low. Thought to myself of processing. What other clues can the OP offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 :iagree: I noted working memory area was low. Thought to myself of processing. What other clues can the OP offer? I believe I gave more details below. What I have noticed with her: (1) oral grammar below grade level, (2) dyslexic symptoms: skipping words and lines, difficulty keeping eyes in the right area, reversing letters when spelling words (blid instead of build), very poor spelling, (3) ADD (no hyperactivity)--it's like she goes into another world and it's hard to get her out of it. I've read about biofeedback relating to brainwaves and it seems like that might be what's going on, (4) Asperger's: intense interests, awkward socially. I had never noticed processing speed being low. Of course, when I work on her one-on-one, you just work at their level and you don't compare them to others. There have been a few times when I thought my daughter was being spacey while doing math, when she was just thinking the problem through. Could being a (relatively) remediated dyslexia cause low processing speed? The mental processes of a remediated dyslexic would be longer and less efficient than a "normal" child, wouldn't it? Or am I overthinking this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest serenamann Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I give the WJ-Ach and the WJ-Cog tests. Your daughter is NOT good with auditory tasks. Make everything as visual as possible. She has a hard time holding information in her brain for short-term. Maybe she seems like a one-track mind in the day-to-day at home? Reading fluency and spelling = Barton Reading and Spelling Program - buy one level at a time, sell it, buy the next level, sell it, etc. You can do 2-3 lessons a week at home or pay a tutor. Also, her visual matching (find 2 identical numbers in a row and circle them) and spelling and reading fluency might point to a need for vision therapy. After about a year of therapy, it is a permanent fix. A regular opthamologist doesn't always catch this. It could simply be the dyslexia, but I've worked with numerous students this year that have ADD, SLD, dyslexia, etc - and ALSO needed vision therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyomarie Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Just pointing out that this thread is over 2 years old! Before other people start replying to the OP, she probably doesn't need information anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attabren Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Who did the WJ testing for you? Was it a teacher, psychologist, or "Lay-person"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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