Co-op using Apologia Chemistry--should I be concerned?

[Laurie4b]

Ds who is math and science oriented was signed up for chemistry at a local co-op. This co-op has had some truly excellent teaching, and though it is Christian, has typically not used Christian materials in their science classes. So I was surprised to receive the word today that the chem teacher had selected Apologia Chemistry.

 

I am not myself equipped to evaluate a chemistry text. What I recall from reading here, though, is that Apologia is not particularly rigorous, maybe even not sufficient for a solid chem. course. I think I've read that they have two chem texts, regular and advanced, and that students wishing to do well on the SAT II or to be prepared well for college chemistry should do both books. Can some of you refresh my memory?

 

Also, I'd like to know, if there is anything left out of the Apologia text for religious reasons that a good science student would need to know.

 

I have preregistered at this point, but would be plunking down $500 for this course if I go forward with it. I'm worried based on impressions I've gotten from this board re: Apologia.

 

Thanks for any info you can give me one way or the other.

[Susan C.]

Apologia Chemistry is a solid course. My neighbor teaches chemistry at the high school and says my chapter headings were the same as what they were doing. We are not like all on the list, we found it rigorous. The largest difference is that the experiments in the book teach the concepts by using household items rather than chemicals. But, you can add the MicroChem kit and do those experiments, and the book tells you where to do each one right in the text. Susan Wise Bauer recommends Apologia in Well Trained Mind as well.

[8filltheheart]

Ds who is math and science oriented was signed up for chemistry at a local co-op. This co-op has had some truly excellent teaching, and though it is Christian, has typically not used Christian materials in their science classes. So I was surprised to receive the word today that the chem teacher had selected Apologia Chemistry.

 

I am not myself equipped to evaluate a chemistry text. What I recall from reading here, though, is that Apologia is not particularly rigorous, maybe even not sufficient for a solid chem. course. I think I've read that they have two chem texts, regular and advanced, and that students wishing to do well on the SAT II or to be prepared well for college chemistry should do both books. Can some of you refresh my memory?

 

Also, I'd like to know, if there is anything left out of the Apologia text for religious reasons that a good science student would need to know.

 

I have preregistered at this point, but would be plunking down $500 for this course if I go forward with it. I'm worried based on impressions I've gotten from this board re: Apologia.

 

Thanks for any info you can give me one way or the other.

 

I would not spend $500 for a course using Apologia. It is meant to used by the student and does not require an additional teacher.

Edited August 18, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart
added "not".....thanks Janet

[Janet in WA]

 

I would not spend $500 for a course using Apologia. It is meant to used by the student and does require an additional teacher.

Did you mean "does NOT require an additional teacher"?

[Janet in WA]

 

I have preregistered at this point, but would be plunking down $500 for this course if I go forward with it.

$500 for a homeschool co-op class? Wow. That had better be SOME special class. That's more -- a lot more -- than it would cost to take Chem 101 at our local community college. Edited August 18, 2009 by Janet in WA

[Carol in Cal.]

Chemistry is a science that really doesn't impinge on a young earth Creationist's view of history. So although I am not personally familiar with Apologia Chemistry, I can't imagine that the content would have exclusions due to its Christian YE POV. I can't speak to your other questions, though.

 

The subjects that YE views would influence more so are biology, geology, earth science, astronomy, and archeology. Maybe anthropology as well.

 

It's a very tough issue. It is challenging to be pursuing a career in most of the sciences these days with YE views. Technology is still wide open, though.

 

The way that I have chosen to manage this issue with my DD is to teach from a very early age the usefulness of models, and the fact that they don't have to be true to be useful. Thus, using an equation for a line to represent a set of experimental data is a useful way to summarize it. There might be some exceptions to it, and extrapolation is more dangerous than interpolation, but the model is a helpful way to organize and picture the data, and should be learned. In the same way, the big bang and evolution are useful ways to summarize a bunch of data, and picture it all together, but they don't have to be exactly true or accurate to be helpful in organizing the data. So you have to learn them, thoroughly, but remember, they are just models.

 

My view is that Genesis portrays the earth being created with the appearance of age, and all creation fell in the Fall, so nothing is 'as created' exactly, so having the appearance of geological age is not inconsistent with a YE Genesis POV.

[TRILLIUM]

It's hard to "do well" on the subject SAT's if by "well" you mean getting the same percentile ranking as you would for the general SAT. The group taking the test is selected---includes those needing SAT subject tests---mostly going to selective colleges---and on top of that the individuals pick the subject they think they will do best in. Although all the tests might be taken after one year of the subject there will be individuals taking the test who have AP'ed in the subject. Also truely dedicated individuals will take the test multiple time.

 

I do think that Aplogia is a particularly straightforward science series. We did not use them.

 

And in case you ask---I would not necessarily suggest you do what we did for Chem. She went straight to General Chem at the CC. She survived and got A's in both semesters, but I know it was a tough stressful situation.

[2cents]

Apologia Chem is a good curriculum. A few of our coops offer the course but they don't charge anything close to $500. That is a lot! What exactly are you getting for that besides instruction? Supplies? Hopefully they are included.

[8filltheheart]

Did you mean "does NOT require an additional teacher"?

 

Yep, thanks.

[Laurie4b]

Apologia Chem is a good curriculum. A few of our coops offer the course but they don't charge anything close to $500. That is a lot! What exactly are you getting for that besides instruction? Supplies? Hopefully they are included.

 

Everything but the text is included. The two main benefits to me would be getting the labs done off site and having a teacher who understands the subject, which I no longer remember (and don't have time to re-learn.)

[Laurie4b]

Chemistry is a science that really doesn't impinge on a young earth Creationist's view of history. So although I am not personally familiar with Apologia Chemistry, I can't imagine that the content would have exclusions due to its Christian YE POV. I can't speak to your other questions, though.

 

The subjects that YE views would influence more so are biology, geology, earth science, astronomy, and archeology. Maybe anthropology as well.

 

It's a very tough issue. It is challenging to be pursuing a career in most of the sciences these days with YE views. Technology is still wide open, though.

 

The way that I have chosen to manage this issue with my DD is to teach from a very early age the usefulness of models, and the fact that they don't have to be true to be useful. Thus, using an equation for a line to represent a set of experimental data is a useful way to summarize it. There might be some exceptions to it, and extrapolation is more dangerous than interpolation, but the model is a helpful way to organize and picture the data, and should be learned. In the same way, the big bang and evolution are useful ways to summarize a bunch of data, and picture it all together, but they don't have to be exactly true or accurate to be helpful in organizing the data. So you have to learn them, thoroughly, but remember, they are just models.

 

My view is that Genesis portrays the earth being created with the appearance of age, and all creation fell in the Fall, so nothing is 'as created' exactly, so having the appearance of geological age is not inconsistent with a YE Genesis POV.

 

I like what you wrote about models.

 

Ds would like to be an engineer. His expressed interest is civil engineering, but of course that could change if he takes a course like chemistry and really likes that. I just want all his options to be open for him when he goes to college.

[Laurie4b]

Apologia Chemistry is a solid course. My neighbor teaches chemistry at the high school and says my chapter headings were the same as what they were doing. We are not like all on the list, we found it rigorous. The largest difference is that the experiments in the book teach the concepts by using household items rather than chemicals. But, you can add the MicroChem kit and do those experiments, and the book tells you where to do each one right in the text. Susan Wise Bauer recommends Apologia in Well Trained Mind as well.

 

Thanks. I appreciate your experience.

[Laurie4b]

It's hard to "do well" on the subject SAT's if by "well" you mean getting the same percentile ranking as you would for the general SAT. The group taking the test is selected---includes those needing SAT subject tests---mostly going to selective colleges---and on top of that the individuals pick the subject they think they will do best in. Although all the tests might be taken after one year of the subject there will be individuals taking the test who have AP'ed in the subject. Also truely dedicated individuals will take the test multiple time.

 

I do think that Aplogia is a particularly straightforward science series. We did not use them.

 

And in case you ask---I would not necessarily suggest you do what we did for Chem. She went straight to General Chem at the CC. She survived and got A's in both semesters, but I know it was a tough stressful situation.

 

I do understand about the SAT II tests. Ds is not old enough to take cc courses yet but he'll probably take some science and math next year at cc.

[TRILLIUM]

It does seem a little pricey, I think part of it would depend on how much of the time was spent on lab and how often it meets. If you're busy and have other kids and they do several labs it might be worth the money. One thing you can't buy back is a lost school year,

 

If they spent all their time going over the answers to the study guide/tests in class I would not pay for it.

 

I guess it might be possible that the instructor wanted something the kids could use independently and then planned on adding information with lectures and such. So maybe you could discuss how the text would be used.

 

You might actually be able to step right into the non-majors typically one semester cc course. I would suggest getting local information on the difficulty of your cc---I think they vary---Just as costs and age restrictions do by locations. You'd spend $415 in tuitition for a one semester science class where I live $830 for the two semester science major course.

[chaik76]

If your son is looking at a science degree I wouldn't use Apologia. While a college he applies to might not ask for the name of the text, some colleges do ask this of homeschoolers...and Apologia, as a young earth text, is not going to get a good response, especially for someone who wants to go into the sciences. I can have my dh look at it (he is a chemistry professor) and let you know where he thinks the rigor of the course stands, but I know he will advise that you use a rigorous secular course. Are there students or a professor at a local college who could tutor him and help him with labs if you don't feel this is a course you would want to teach him?

[choirfarm]

That seems REALLY expensive. We do Apologia at our co-ops and it only costs us 20 dollars. They do the labs there. We do all the book work and tests at home. I don't know the subject, but just grade it with the key. That said, dh is a doctor so they conference and discuss the subject, but I grade everything.

 

Christine

[justamouse]

If your son is looking at a science degree I wouldn't use Apologia. While a college he applies to might not ask for the name of the text, some colleges do ask this of homeschoolers...and Apologia, as a young earth text, is not going to get a good response, especially for someone who wants to go into the sciences. I can have my dh look at it (he is a chemistry professor) and let you know where he thinks the rigor of the course stands, but I know he will advise that you use a rigorous secular course. Are there students or a professor at a local college who could tutor him and help him with labs if you don't feel this is a course you would want to teach him?

 

 

Yup, this.

 

And you may want to email http://www.biologos.org/

 

It's headed by Dr. Francis Collins, who spearheaded the Human Genome Project, is a Christian, strongly believes in Homeschooling, and believes in the Big Bang. His Book, The Language of God, is utterly amazing. Anywho, I bet you an e-mail could direct you to a good curriculum. Biologos is designing one, but it's not available yet. And the sire is amazing, grab some tea before you sit to read.

 

My son is going to be taking engineering at our county tech (which has an award winning Engineering class) and his sciences there, too, offered as AP credits. Then he'll be doing the rest of his academics at home.

[FloridaLisa]

Laurie,

 

My oldest ds used Apologia biology and chemistry in 8th and 9th grades, knowing he would be going on to AP classes (and now dual enrollment at our university) to round out his high school science. So, Apologia was the foundation on which later, more rigorous courses were laid. That is what my others will do as well.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Miss Marple]

I've taught Apologia Chemistry in co-op and I've taught Singapore O Level Chemistry in co-op. I have no experience with what is taught in public school chemistry. Several of us have posted in the past about our issues with Apologia and I will say again that it isn't what I want to use with my kids for a variety of reasons (lack of application discussion, lack of use of reasoning questions, and lack of data interpretation), but I do feel it has a place in many homeschools.

 

I don't think anything is left out because of a religious reason - if anything is lacking it is due to time necessary to cover the subject. One will notice that the chapter headings will match other texts, but the real difference is in how the subject is covered within the text.

 

I am very comfortable with chemistry so I was looking for something more than Apologia offered. *BUT* if Apologia is being offered in a co-op, and hopefully the teacher will tweak the course to cover those aspects that are lacking, and will do experiments, and you cannot do it....then go for it. But I'm shocked at the cost. We offer a high school science (taught by someone with a science degree) every year and our co-op only charges $100 per year (sometimes less) for tuition which includes 2 other classes!

[Guest Christina in nc]

I am using this text to teach high school chemistry. I majored in Biochemistry and zoology. When I took chemistry in high school I understood NONE of it. Not until my 3rd semester of chemistry at a large university did I really start to get it (I made grades fine - just did not understand how it fit and what it really meant). What I love about this text is that there are no wasted words. If he is teaching a topic, he presents it so that high schoolers can understand it - perhaps with some additional outside help - and at the end of each chapter I really feel like they have an understanding that I did not get until much later. I tutored a friend's child for a couple of chapters - he was using a local high school's text - when we went thourgh it explaining the way Apologia does he got it. I really like this class for a first high school chem class. The 2nd chem is advanced chemistry.

I agree that $500 is a lot to spend - unless there are some major labs and other things to learn - esp. compared to a CC class. But, not every student is ready to take it at the college level and in 1 semester as opposed to 1 year.

The microchem labs are pretty good, sometimes you have to stretch to see how they are fitting in to the current modules - they are definitely worth doing. I don't know that I'd pay someone to teach it unless they had additional labs, a group of kids (that keeps mine motivated), and will teach good lab skills and good lab report writing skills. All of those will be needed to survive in college chem.

Apologia will lay a good foundation for college chemistry if the student finishes with a strong understanding of the subject. It may not allow you to place out of college chemistry by AP testing or SAT II's unless you take the advanced class too.

[Laurie4b]

I am using this text to teach high school chemistry. I majored in Biochemistry and zoology. When I took chemistry in high school I understood NONE of it. Not until my 3rd semester of chemistry at a large university did I really start to get it (I made grades fine - just did not understand how it fit and what it really meant). What I love about this text is that there are no wasted words. If he is teaching a topic, he presents it so that high schoolers can understand it - perhaps with some additional outside help - and at the end of each chapter I really feel like they have an understanding that I did not get until much later. I tutored a friend's child for a couple of chapters - he was using a local high school's text - when we went thourgh it explaining the way Apologia does he got it. I really like this class for a first high school chem class. The 2nd chem is advanced chemistry.

I agree that $500 is a lot to spend - unless there are some major labs and other things to learn - esp. compared to a CC class. But, not every student is ready to take it at the college level and in 1 semester as opposed to 1 year.

The microchem labs are pretty good, sometimes you have to stretch to see how they are fitting in to the current modules - they are definitely worth doing. I don't know that I'd pay someone to teach it unless they had additional labs, a group of kids (that keeps mine motivated), and will teach good lab skills and good lab report writing skills. All of those will be needed to survive in college chem.

Apologia will lay a good foundation for college chemistry if the student finishes with a strong understanding of the subject. It may not allow you to place out of college chemistry by AP testing or SAT II's unless you take the advanced class too.

 

Thanks. That was very helpful. I just talked with the two PhD's who taught other ds's chem class (their kid is older now, so aren't teaching anymore) and they thought the Apologia is sufficient as well, though they chose a different text and did more advanced, fun experiments.

 

I understand your point about understanding material. Ds is too young for cc in our state and I don't think I'd enroll him in a college level course for his first taste of it.

 

Dh says it's worth $14 a week to hire someone else to motivate the boy to do his work, pull together the labs, grade his lab notebook, etc.

[Laurie4b]

I've taught Apologia Chemistry in co-op and I've taught Singapore O Level Chemistry in co-op. I have no experience with what is taught in public school chemistry. Several of us have posted in the past about our issues with Apologia and I will say again that it isn't what I want to use with my kids for a variety of reasons (lack of application discussion, lack of use of reasoning questions, and lack of data interpretation), but I do feel it has a place in many homeschools.

 

I don't think anything is left out because of a religious reason - if anything is lacking it is due to time necessary to cover the subject. One will notice that the chapter headings will match other texts, but the real difference is in how the subject is covered within the text.

 

I am very comfortable with chemistry so I was looking for something more than Apologia offered. *BUT* if Apologia is being offered in a co-op, and hopefully the teacher will tweak the course to cover those aspects that are lacking, and will do experiments, and you cannot do it....then go for it. But I'm shocked at the cost. We offer a high school science (taught by someone with a science degree) every year and our co-op only charges $100 per year (sometimes less) for tuition which includes 2 other classes!

 

Thanks for the input. The private classes for homeschoolers in this area are expensive. It's not out of line for this area at all. This is taught by someone with a masters in science education and she seems really nice, so we're going for it. It works out to less than $7 per hour for someone else to teach the course for me. I may try to supplement, and we'll do something more advanced later.

[TRILLIUM]

Thanks for the input. The private classes for homeschoolers in this area are expensive. It's not out of line for this area at all. This is taught by someone with a masters in science education and she seems really nice, so we're going for it. It works out to less than $7 per hour for someone else to teach the course for me. I may try to supplement, and we'll do something more advanced later.

 

 

Your classes have more meeting times than the co-op classes we've done. Comparing hourly rate does not sound as bad as yearly. We are in a middle school co-op where classes meet a total of 24 hours a year and a high school where they meet 32 hours. Looks like you are getting over 71 hours of instrruction.

 

Good luck.

[Miss Marple]

Sounds like she'll do a great job. And it is difficult to compare co-ops - our co-op is all volunteer and the tuition only pays for rental of the facility and supplies. Enjoy!

[Julie in MN]

Everything but the text is included. The two main benefits to me would be getting the labs done off site and having a teacher who understands the subject, which I no longer remember (and don't have time to re-learn.)

 

Our local co-op charges $435 for the year if you include the registration fee, and families buy the text & test booklet.

 

Just thought you'd want to know that the cost wasn't totally unheard of.

Julie

[Laurie4b]

Sounds like she'll do a great job. And it is difficult to compare co-ops - our co-op is all volunteer and the tuition only pays for rental of the facility and supplies. Enjoy!

 

This is more like a 1 day private school for homeschooled students. The teachers are salaried. The parents aren't required to do anything but pay tuition and transport them.