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#51 Laura Corin

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:59 PM

:svengo: because I agree with.... Peek!?!


The strange coincidences of wildly divergent views. I'm trying to plot a graph in my head.

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#52 LizzyBee

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

:svengo: because I agree with.... Peek!?!

And, :cheers2: because ... dayum... you go girl!


Oh my gosh, isn't that the 2nd time in about a week that you've agreed with Peek?! :D

#53 Michelle My Bell

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

Do the Amish register? Just wondering...

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:11 PM

By maintaining an ALL volunteer force, we allow those honorable people who do NOT wish to serve to freely act and find ways to protect and serve the REST of the people left at home that the military went off to fight for. I'm not seeing how that is dishonorable or cowardly.

nobody is going "in their place" because there IS NO PLACE in a free society for forced service.


Heaven help me, because this is not a fight I'm really in the mood to take on but this bothers me. A lot. First of all, the obvious... We wouldn't be a free society without the armed services. Ironic, huh?

Yes, we're an all volunteer force. That's just dandy. In fact, it is exactly what soldiers and military leaders want...an all volunteer force made up of those who willingly take up arms to protect the people of this country. Obviously, it makes for an easier force to manage to have everyone down with the general idea of pride and honor of military service.

However, sometimes more people are needed (in WWII just to name a pretty dang hard to debate example). The draft and the selective service aren't about "being enslaved to a military organization." They are about getting the numbers to win the fight, whatever fight we happen to be in. When volunteers don't make up the full number we need, a draft is necessary.

My father was drafted. He hated that he was drafted. He and my mother had just gotten married and he had big dreams of college at the time, but he stepped up and entered the Army as his nation needed him to do. He ended up loving it so much that he made a career of it.

I'm all for conscientious objectors. Fine. I get it. But yes, if you are not a conscientious objector and you flee this country to avoid military service, you are a coward. You are, in fact, letting someone else take your place and you are a slap in the face to the men and women who willingly put their lives on the line for you every single day. To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.

#55 Joy at Home

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:14 PM

Heaven help me, because this is not a fight I'm really in the mood to take on but this bothers me. A lot. First of all, the obvious... We wouldn't be a free society without the armed services. Ironic, huh?

Yes, we're an all volunteer force. That's just dandy. In fact, it is exactly what soldiers and military leaders want...an all volunteer force made up of those who willingly take up arms to protect the people of this country. Obviously, it makes for an easier force to manage to have everyone down with the general idea of pride and honor of military service.

However, sometimes more people are needed (in WWII just to name a pretty dang hard to debate example). The draft and the selective service aren't about "being enslaved to a military organization." They are about getting the numbers to win the fight, whatever fight we happen to be in. When volunteers don't make up the full number we need, a draft is necessary.

My father was drafted. He hated that he was drafted. He and my mother had just gotten married and he had big dreams of college at the time, but he stepped up and entered the Army as his nation needed him to do. He ended up loving it so much that he made a career of it.

I'm all for conscientious objectors. Fine. I get it. But yes, if you are not a conscientious objector and you flee this country to avoid military service, you are a coward. You are, in fact, letting someone else take your place and you are a slap in the face to the men and women who willingly put their lives on the line for you every single day. To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.


:iagree: - Very well said.

Blessings,
Lisa

#56 chaik76

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:21 PM

If people live in this country I would expect that they sign up, I see nothing weird about it. The US military has many non-Americans in its ranks. It is only to be an officer that one must be a citizen.

I fail to understand why anyone would have a problem with this.


PQR, I don't think anyone does. It's just shocking to find that your baby is now a "man" and the US wants him to promise possible service in the future, just in case.

IOW, I think it was unexpected (heck, I KNOW about it, but when time comes for ds, I'll still be surprised and a little heartsick).

Actually, I do. I'm a pacifist. My father went to jail rather than go to Vietnam. My parents had "safe plans" for my brothers so they could be sent out of the country if a draft was ever instituted.

There are serious penalties to not signing up for selective service...but it is something I believe should not be mandatory. It is something that infuriates me about this country.

I'm all for conscientious objectors. Fine. I get it. But yes, if you are not a conscientious objector and you flee this country to avoid military service, you are a coward. You are, in fact, letting someone else take your place and you are a slap in the face to the men and women who willingly put their lives on the line for you every single day. To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.

I disagree with you. Absolutely and completely. I think war is reprehensible. Period. I do not, will not, and cannot condone the act of destroying the lives of other human beings.

#57 chaik76

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:23 PM

Do the Amish register? Just wondering...

Michelle

No, they do not. They also do not get social security numbers...but they also don't use social security benefits, and other programs such as that.

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:37 PM

I'm a pacifist.

I disagree with you. Absolutely and completely. I think war is reprehensible. Period. I do not, will not, and cannot condone the act of destroying the lives of other human beings.


Well, then you missed the part where I agreed with you. Being a pacifist makes you a conscientious objector. As I said, I'm fine with that.

For the record, only the psychotic like war. Everyone else hates it, no one more than soldiers and their families.

Edited by Alte Veste Academy, 07 August 2009 - 08:40 PM.


#59 chaik76

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:41 PM

Well, then you missed the part where I agreed with you. Being a pacifist makes you a conscientious objector. As I said, I'm fine with that.

For the record, only the psychotic like war. Everyone else hates it, no one more than soldiers and their families.

I do understand that. However, I do not think that even people who are not conscientious objectors should be required to fight in war.

#60 KingM

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:45 PM

I disagree with you. Absolutely and completely. I think war is reprehensible. Period. I do not, will not, and cannot condone the act of destroying the lives of other human beings.


Just out of curiosity, how do you think the US should have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor? Would your views change at all if a large foreign army landed on US soil?

I'm just wondering if you differentiate between:

1. Unjust foreign wars (say, Vietnam, as you mentioned)
2. Just foreign wars to defend against a country that has attacked us
3. An actual invasion of American soil

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:46 PM

I do understand that. However, I do not think that even people who are not conscientious objectors should be required to fight in war.


:lol: I'm sorry but that's just so funny. Of course you don't! You're a pacifist. And, for the record (again), I'm fine with that as a reason for avoiding service.

However, both pacifists and cowards are protected by the American soldier. Without soldiers to protect them, they would end up being enslaved to entities much worse than the United States military. That sounds uglier than I meant to be but really, it's true.

#62 Shelly in the Country

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:49 PM

Heaven help me, because this is not a fight I'm really in the mood to take on but this bothers me. A lot. First of all, the obvious... We wouldn't be a free society without the armed services. Ironic, huh?

Yes, we're an all volunteer force. That's just dandy. In fact, it is exactly what soldiers and military leaders want...an all volunteer force made up of those who willingly take up arms to protect the people of this country. Obviously, it makes for an easier force to manage to have everyone down with the general idea of pride and honor of military service.

However, sometimes more people are needed (in WWII just to name a pretty dang hard to debate example). The draft and the selective service aren't about "being enslaved to a military organization." They are about getting the numbers to win the fight, whatever fight we happen to be in. When volunteers don't make up the full number we need, a draft is necessary.

My father was drafted. He hated that he was drafted. He and my mother had just gotten married and he had big dreams of college at the time, but he stepped up and entered the Army as his nation needed him to do. He ended up loving it so much that he made a career of it.

I'm all for conscientious objectors. Fine. I get it. But yes, if you are not a conscientious objector and you flee this country to avoid military service, you are a coward. You are, in fact, letting someone else take your place and you are a slap in the face to the men and women who willingly put their lives on the line for you every single day. To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.


:iagree:

Wow, I thought about posting some rambling thing, but this sums up my belief on this perfectly.

#63 chaik76

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:55 PM

Just out of curiosity, how do you think the US should have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor? Would your views change at all if a large foreign army landed on US soil?

I'm just wondering if you differentiate between:

1. Unjust foreign wars (say, Vietnam, as you mentioned)
2. Just foreign wars to defend against a country that has attacked us
3. An actual invasion of American soil

Sigh. The reality is that war, at this point, seems necessary. I don't agree with it, I hate it...and I hope and wish that we become strong enough as a human nation (talking the world here) to find another way to resolve our problems. Until that time, I guess war will continue. I certainly don't have the answer as to what alternatives would be possible.

But personally, no, I don't differentiate. I also think that our entry into WWI was a huge mistake...and set the pace for what happened in future wars. I still believe we should have remained focused on our own country, and that this may have led to our ability to avoid entry into at least some of the wars we participated in after the First World War.

#64 KingM

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:58 PM

But personally, no, I don't differentiate. I also think that our entry into WWI was a huge mistake...and set the pace for what happened in future wars. I still believe we should have remained focused on our own country, and that this may have led to our ability to avoid entry into at least some of the wars we participated in after the First World War.


So what should we have done after the Japanese attacked us? And what if a large Japanese army had landed in San Francisco and started behaving as they did in Nanking? What should we have done?

#65 mommaduck

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:17 PM

No, they do not. They also do not get social security numbers...but they also don't use social security benefits, and other programs such as that.


This is only true with some Amish. There are plenty of Amish that get SSN's and even some that are now, with permission of their ministers, receiving assistance such as food stamps and other such. Also, if they work in a factory instead of other work, they HAVE to pay into SS even if they never use it. And Amish have cell phones, own cars, drink, grow and sell pot, get into fights, are on registered sex offenders lists, listen to rap, can use and sometimes even program a computer, etc.

Edited by mommaduck, 07 August 2009 - 09:19 PM.


#66 Peek a Boo

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:17 PM

Heaven help me, because this is not a fight I'm really in the mood to take on but this bothers me. A lot. First of all, the obvious... We wouldn't be a free society without the armed services. Ironic, huh?


I'm not anti-armed services: I'm anti- being forced to serve. Big diff.

and we won't BE a "free" society if military service is forced. ironic, eh?

However, sometimes more people are needed (in WWII just to name a pretty dang hard to debate example). The draft and the selective service aren't about "being enslaved to a military organization." They are about getting the numbers to win the fight, whatever fight we happen to be in. When volunteers don't make up the full number we need, a draft is necessary.


except that it IS EXACTLY "being enslaved to a military organization."
how do you figger it's NOT?
join or go to jail. yeah....

eta: speaking specifically about the draft here. ;)

My father was drafted. He hated that he was drafted. He and my mother had just gotten married and he had big dreams of college at the time, but he stepped up and entered the Army as his nation needed him to do. He ended up loving it so much that he made a career of it.


That's nice.
I think it is perfectly fine for the gvt to ASK for more volunteers and even offer substantial payment to GET more volunteers. But the fact that some enjoy it does not mean continuing to expect a forced signing up as right, moral, or ethical.

I'm all for conscientious objectors. Fine. I get it. But yes, if you are not a conscientious objector and you flee this country to avoid military service, you are a coward. You are, in fact, letting someone else take your place and you are a slap in the face to the men and women who willingly put their lives on the line for you every single day. To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.


except you wrongly assume that everyone who refuses to serve in the military is willing to sit back and do NOTHING. There are PLENTY of civil jobs that help contribute to the freedoms this country enjoys and many of them involve substantial risk. Soldiers are only one aspect of our freedom. I have a deep appreciation for the military, but i refuse to base my entire freedom on their contributions. they are ONE piece of the puzzle.

THAT's why they are not "taking my place" -- it assumes there is only a military place. WRONG.
One shouldn't have to be a CO just to be able to serve their country in their own unique way.

Edited by Peek a Boo, 07 August 2009 - 09:21 PM.


#67 Peek a Boo

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:23 PM

However, both pacifists and cowards are protected by the American soldier. Without soldiers to protect them, they would end up being enslaved to entities much worse than the United States military. That sounds uglier than I meant to be but really, it's true.


just to reiterate --I'm not anti-military :) i fully support the right of people to voluntarily join the armed forces.

#68 Peek a Boo

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:26 PM

Oh my gosh, isn't that the 2nd time in about a week that you've agreed with Peek?! :D


oh GREAT! just GREAT!! sheesh.

shut up already, 'k??!!!

#69 Peek a Boo

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

The strange coincidences of wildly divergent views. I'm trying to plot a graph in my head.


{{mine's about use of force. I think I've been pretty consistent....;) }}

#70 jujsky

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:30 PM

THIS is my biggest issue w/ mandatory SSR. I do not believe one should have to PROVE one's personal convictions to avoid being sent out to be trained to kill --or assist others to kill. That goes against the very foundational point of *freedom* that we are already losing.

Our military [and gvt!!!] is a VOLUNTEER force. That's part of what makes it so great. I would vote to do away w/ mandatory SSR, while still allowing voluntary SSR. i don't even mind offering a tax credit for people who are willing to sign up w/ a SSR [gvt recruiting for a Constitutional job].

But to make it mandatory and penalize you w/ JAIL TIME just for not signing up? That irks the crap outta me.


:iagree:

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

I'm not anti-armed services: I'm anti- being forced to serve. Big diff.

and we won't BE a "free" society if military service is forced. ironic, eh?


except that it IS EXACTLY "being enslaved to a military organization."
how do you figger it's NOT?
join or go to jail. yeah....

eta: speaking specifically about the draft here. ;)


That's nice.
I think it is perfectly fine for the gvt to ASK for more volunteers and even offer substantial payment to GET more volunteers. But the fact that some enjoy it does not mean continuing to expect a forced signing up as right, moral, or ethical.


except you wrongly assume that everyone who refuses to serve in the military is willing to sit back and do NOTHING. There are PLENTY of civil jobs that help contribute to the freedoms this country enjoys and many of them involve substantial risk. Soldiers are only one aspect of our freedom. I have a deep appreciation for the military, but i refuse to base my entire freedom on their contributions. they are ONE piece of the puzzle.

THAT's why they are not "taking my place" -- it assumes there is only a military place. WRONG.
One shouldn't have to be a CO just to be able to serve their country in their own unique way.


Well, you're obviously very passionate in your opinion and I'm passionate about mine. We won't convince each other of anything and that's no big deal. America sure is swell.

#72 JennC

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:37 PM

America sure is swell.

.

#73 QueenCath

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:53 PM

Actually, they do get social security numbers. They still have to file taxes, and they do obey the law of the land.

#74 Night Elf

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:16 PM

Just out of curiosity, how do you think the US should have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor? Would your views change at all if a large foreign army landed on US soil?


Well, to start with, I think it was quite cowardly of us, the United States, to round up about 110,000 Japanese Nationals and Japanese Americans to confine them in "war relocation camps". I guess some people thought those people, at least the Americans, were not being patriotic to volunteer for those camps?

#75 Night Elf

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:28 PM

To sit back and enjoy the freedom that has been provided for you courtesy of the United States soldier and then refuse to join him in the fight when and if he needs your help is reprehensible.


First you mention the women and men who willingly volunteer and expect admiration and respect for them. And then you basically slap the men who don't want to join. What about women? Why aren't we women required to register? Why do we still perpetuate the myth that all men are manly men who fight and protect well, i.e. they are the hunters; and the women are girly girls who stay behind to nurture kids and keep house, i.e. they are the gatherers? Why can't we understand that some men aren't cut out for protecting and some women aren't cut out for housekeeping? Do not not believe our country is a sexist country? Or are you happy it's that way? I'm ashamed that we are that way, just for the record.

#76 astrid

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:29 PM

The PSA's I keep hearing say they can prevent him from getting a driver's license and/of scholarships if he doesn't register. They are playing them all year on the radio here.


YES---- failure to register CAN prevent him from getting financial aid/scholarships/etc.

I had a student in my adult education classes who was 26 but had spent his entire life from age 13 on either homeless or incarcerated. He straightened out and earned his high school diploma in my classes, with the goal of attending a trade school to learn the HVAC trade. He was incredibly needy, and had GLOWING letters of recommendation from myself and several others, but was denied the financial aid he sorely needed because he never registered with selective service. He had never heard of selective service until he had the depressing conversation with the financial aid officer at the trade school. He was just never at a known address long enough to recieve the notification and he just slipped through the cracks.

Sad story...... I felt so badly for the guy!

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#77 Joy at Home

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:38 PM

[

Edited by Momto5girls, 07 August 2009 - 11:54 PM.
oops


#78 Joy at Home

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:43 PM

..

Edited by Momto5girls, 07 August 2009 - 11:54 PM.
oops


#79 Kinsa

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:52 PM

First you mention the women and men who willingly volunteer and expect admiration and respect for them. And then you basically slap the men who don't want to join. What about women? Why aren't we women required to register? Why do we still perpetuate the myth that all men are manly men who fight and protect well, i.e. they are the hunters; and the women are girly girls who stay behind to nurture kids and keep house, i.e. they are the gatherers? Why can't we understand that some men aren't cut out for protecting and some women aren't cut out for housekeeping? Do not not believe our country is a sexist country? Or are you happy it's that way? I'm ashamed that we are that way, just for the record.


I'll take a stab at answering this...

It's simple biology. If all the men in the country went off the fight in a war and all but ONE got killed, you could still repopulate the country as long as the women were left behind. (Of course, he'd be a pretty exhausted guy! And he'd probably have a perma-grin... :lol: )

But if the women were killed off, no number of men could repopulate the country without an adequate number of females left behind.

This is the original justification for it. It might be an outdated one, or it might not be, but it persists, nonetheless. But let's not forget: women can, and do, join the armed forces voluntarily. It isn't as though they are prevented from serving.

BTW, regarding your first line of text, are you saying that you don't admire and respect those who serve in the military?

Edited by Kinsa, 08 August 2009 - 12:00 AM.


#80 BillieBoy

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:58 PM

Sorry to chime in and give my 2 cents late….
I’ve posted about my Asian half, now I’m compelled to speak on behalf of my American side.
Citizenship in this county is a privilege and with it comes obligations. We are obligated to pay taxes. I guess one could conscientiously object to taxes, but that generally results in jail time and other taxpaying citizens (like myself) covering those costs. Though I sometimes dispute what these taxes go for, I vote for the person I best feel will represent my views. Voting is a privilege; so is living under the security of our armed forces in YES, the FREEST country in the world. The Selective Services Registration System is a law that states all males between the ages of 18 and 25 must register with the government; that’s it just register. It is not the draft; it is only a list of eligible men. If the draft is ever implemented again you are able to object to combat based on your moral beliefs. They would then try and use your service anywhere but the frontline. If you do not register than privileges afforded other law abiding citizens are not yours to take advantage of. Like another poster mentioned we do not have mandatory service like Israel, but if that is what it takes to keep our country safe, then so be it.

#81 Night Elf

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:18 AM

This is the original justification for it. It might be an outdated one, or it might not be, but it persists, nonetheless. But let's not forget: women can, and do, join the armed forces voluntarily. It isn't as though they are prevented from serving.


Well, that's a really bizarre justification. But still, just because something is outdated and still around, doesn't mean it deserves to stick around. Thank goodness the civil rights activists didn't feel that way.

BTW, regarding your first line of text, are you saying that you don't admire and respect those who serve in the military?


I've seen your red, white and blue theme. You aren't biased about the military at all, are you? And wouldn't I be absolutely stupid to be lured in by such big, juicy bait!!

Edited by Night Elf, 08 August 2009 - 12:21 AM.


#82 phathui5

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:22 AM

What if you're a conscientious objector?

#83 BillieBoy

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:32 AM

What if you're a conscientious objector?


As I understand it you can be a conscientious objector only if they enforce a draft and then call your number. Until then it is only a list. I am not sure it you state that on your registration or not.

#84 Renee in NC

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:45 AM

Actually, they do get social security numbers. They still have to file taxes, and they do obey the law of the land.


Yep. Many do not pay into Social Security, but they do pay income taxes just like everyone else. They do register with Selective Service as well and have been drafted in the past, but serve as CO.

#85 Peek a Boo

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:53 AM

Citizenship in this county is a privilege and with it comes obligations. We are obligated to pay taxes. I guess one could conscientiously object to taxes, but that generally results in jail time and other taxpaying citizens (like myself) covering those costs. Though I sometimes dispute what these taxes go for, I vote for the person I best feel will represent my views. Voting is a privilege; so is living under the security of our armed forces in YES, the FREEST country in the world. The Selective Services Registration System is a law that states all males between the ages of 18 and 25 must register with the government; that’s it just register. It is not the draft; it is only a list of eligible men. If the draft is ever implemented again you are able to object to combat based on your moral beliefs. They would then try and use your service anywhere but the frontline. If you do not register than privileges afforded other law abiding citizens are not yours to take advantage of. Like another poster mentioned we do not have mandatory service like Israel, but if that is what it takes to keep our country safe, then so be it.


Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.


Citizenship in this country comes with the freedom and responsibility to speak up and work to change laws that encroach upon our freedom. Just going along to get along is NOT what this country was founded on. We were warned from the beginning that it would take constant watchdogging to keep our country truly free.

That means that we can lobby against unfair taxes. We can choose to serve jailtime instead of paying them. It's a risk WE get to take, and just because someone is willing to TAKE that risk doesn't mean they are shirking their AMERICAN duty and obligations or that they are a COWARD -- they just have a different philosophy of how best to voice that duty and obligation.

The fact that our system is currently set up in such a way that other taxpayers start shouldering the burden is a clear indication that our system is NOT conducive to a truly free society. More at capitalism.org.
Therefore i OBJECT to the current tax system, i OBJECT to people being FORCED to sign up on ANY list, and i OBJECT to the continued arguments that Americans should embrace the opportunity to be FORCED into anything.

#86 dragons in the flower bed

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:04 AM

As I understand it you can be a conscientious objector only if they enforce a draft and then call your number. Until then it is only a list. I am not sure it you state that on your registration or not.


This is what we learned when my partner's oldest son turned eighteen. If you're a conscientious objector, you should also keep a portfolio of evidence that you were one before the draft: church membership rosters, photos of yourself at protests, letters to the editor you've written.

#87 phathui5

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:09 AM

This is what we learned when my partner's oldest son turned eighteen. If you're a conscientious objector, you should also keep a portfolio of evidence that you were one before the draft: church membership rosters, photos of yourself at protests, letters to the editor you've written.


The Mennonite Church has resources for those wanting to document their conscientious objector status.

http://mcc.org/us/co/

#88 TXMomof4

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

Sorry to chime in and give my 2 cents late….
I’ve posted about my Asian half, now I’m compelled to speak on behalf of my American side.
Citizenship in this county is a privilege and with it comes obligations. We are obligated to pay taxes. I guess one could conscientiously object to taxes, but that generally results in jail time and other taxpaying citizens (like myself) covering those costs. Though I sometimes dispute what these taxes go for, I vote for the person I best feel will represent my views. Voting is a privilege; so is living under the security of our armed forces in YES, the FREEST country in the world. The Selective Services Registration System is a law that states all males between the ages of 18 and 25 must register with the government; that’s it just register. It is not the draft; it is only a list of eligible men. If the draft is ever implemented again you are able to object to combat based on your moral beliefs. They would then try and use your service anywhere but the frontline. If you do not register than privileges afforded other law abiding citizens are not yours to take advantage of. Like another poster mentioned we do not have mandatory service like Israel, but if that is what it takes to keep our country safe, then so be it.


:iagree: And slipping quietly out before my fingers get going and I can't stop them.....

#89 JFSinIL

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:29 AM

I agree with the other posters. Every male at age 18 must register. It doesn't mean he's automatically in the military. I've wondered what they do about men with such medical conditions that could prevent them from being an effective soldier. I don't find anything about medical exemptions. Until I find out specifically, my Asperger's son will be registering when he's 18.

I did find one thing. There is more information on this website: http://www.usajobs.gov/EI60.asp


As will my son with autism/Silliness. If and when there is a draft they will call numbers and check the kids out - kids like ours will not be taken.

#90 lionfamily1999

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:30 AM

Well, to start with, I think it was quite cowardly of us, the United States, to round up about 110,000 Japanese Nationals and Japanese Americans to confine them in "war relocation camps". I guess some people thought those people, at least the Americans, were not being patriotic to volunteer for those camps?

Which is nothing like the treatment the "guests" of the Japanese government got, right?

#91 Night Elf

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:38 AM

Which is nothing like the treatment the "guests" of the Japanese government got, right?


But we weren't discussing other governments. The specific questions were about how the United States responded to Pearl Harbor and gave the impression that our entire response was admirable.

#92 Kinsa

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:42 PM

Well, that's a really bizarre justification. But still, just because something is outdated and still around, doesn't mean it deserves to stick around. Thank goodness the civil rights activists didn't feel that way.


I'll agree with that.

I've seen your red, white and blue theme. You aren't biased about the military at all, are you? And wouldn't I be absolutely stupid to be lured in by such big, juicy bait!!


I was simply asking for clarification. No need to get snippy. :chillpill:

But I do want to point out one thing. If those who serve in the military do NOT garner the admiration and respect of the civilians whom they are sworn to protect and defend, then the position of military service loses its honor. If it is no longer considered an honorable thing to do, then no one will volunteer to do it (unless they become paid mercenaries - a whole other topic for another time). If no one volunteers to do it, then you have to institute the draft. So it's rather self-defeating to disrespect the military and yet cry foul against the draft.

#93 BillieBoy

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:47 PM


Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.


Citizenship in this country comes with the freedom and responsibility to speak up and work to change laws that encroach upon our freedom. Just going along to get along is NOT what this country was founded on. We were warned from the beginning that it would take constant watchdogging to keep our country truly free.


I agree, actually, that it is our responsibility to question anything that encroaches on our freedoms foreign and domestic. That was in fact how this law came into being in 1917 by a vote of our representatives. Yes, there was opposition but it was not the majority, obviously.


That means that we can lobby against unfair taxes. We can choose to serve jailtime instead of paying them. It's a risk WE get to take, and just because someone is willing to TAKE that risk doesn't mean they are shirking their AMERICAN duty and obligations or that they are a COWARD -- they just have a different philosophy of how best to voice that duty and obligation.


I never said coward. Cowardice is something I believe one person says or labels others when they do not know another’s cumulative experiences, threshold of pain, or inherent fear. Who can?


The fact that our system is currently set up in such a way that other taxpayers start shouldering the burden is a clear indication that our system is NOT conducive to a truly free society. More at capitalism.org.


I also agree that there are faults to our system, we have not reached anywhere near the utopian paradise of a free society, but I still hold that we are the FREEST country in the world today. That should hold some merit. With people as passionate as you and I we will strive to maintain and make this country even better, right? ;)

Therefore i OBJECT to the current tax system, i OBJECT to people being FORCED to sign up on ANY list, and i OBJECT to the continued arguments that Americans should embrace the opportunity to be FORCED into anything.


I think it’s wonderful that you object and that you live in a country in which you are free to do so. However, because it is currently a law that our predecessors voted on and passed, mere objections and failure to comply currently has its consequences. Initiatives and bills brought before our government for change will be the only road for change. The sit-in’s and peace rallies of the 60’s should have taught us that lesson. So work within the system to change the system. I just don’t see how not paying your taxes or just saying something is wrong is going to change anything.

#94 Word Nerd

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:48 PM

But I do want to point out one thing. If those who serve in the military do NOT garner the admiration and respect of the civilians whom they are sworn to protect and defend, then the position of military service loses its honor. If it is no longer considered an honorable thing to do, then no one will volunteer to do it (unless they become paid mercenaries - a whole other topic for another time). If no one volunteers to do it, then you have to institute the draft. So it's rather self-defeating to disrespect the military and yet cry foul against the draft.


Who is disrespecting the military?

#95 Kinsa

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:50 PM

Who is disrespecting the military?


No one in particular. I'm just saying'.

#96 mommaduck

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 01:54 PM

Yep. Many do not pay into Social Security, but they do pay income taxes just like everyone else. They do register with Selective Service as well and have been drafted in the past, but serve as CO.


Those that don't pay into SS, don't the same way as non-Anabaptists that don't...they manage to own their own business or hire out as contracted labor ;) My husband has done this before (but he's not a pacifist; he's a vet).

#97 Impish

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:10 PM

I also agree that there are faults to our system, we have not reached anywhere near the utopian paradise of a free society, but I still hold that we are the FREEST country in the world today. That should hold some merit. With people as passionate as you and I we will strive to maintain and make this country even better, right? ;)

As a Canadian, I disagree, or have an objection to the bolded statement. And we don't have mandatory registration at 18 either ;)

#98 BillieBoy

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:22 PM

As a Canadian, I disagree, or have an objection to the bolded statement. And we don't have mandatory registration at 18 either ;)


Ahhh Impish,
I used to live in Canada and I love it and it's citizens but .......... Canada is really still a monarchy, albeit a constitutional monarchy. By definition it is what it is. Oh heck I don't really want to get into a freedom war. Canada is cool and great too.... ;)

#99 Margaret in GA

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:47 PM

I'll be really, really sad the day my boys have to sign up. And I'll be even more upset if they get called to duty in something as frivilous as the Iraq War. Very rarely does our government call on our military to defend *our* freedom. More often than not, they call on them to serve another country in defense of their freedom. So, I don't think someone is a coward if they refuse to serve in another country's war. Just an opinion.

Margaret

#100 Peek a Boo

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:56 PM

I agree, actually, that it is our responsibility to question anything that encroaches on our freedoms foreign and domestic. That was in fact how this law came into being in 1917 by a vote of our representatives. Yes, there was opposition but it was not the majority, obviously.


I know -- a vote of our representatives is how we got many of our laws that were later struck down as UnConstitutional.

I never said coward. Cowardice is something I believe one person says or labels others when they do not know another’s cumulative experiences, threshold of pain, or inherent fear. Who can?

at least a couple posters in this thread think they can.
This part wasn't necessarily addressed to you personally ;)

I also agree that there are faults to our system, we have not reached anywhere near the utopian paradise of a free society, but I still hold that we are the FREEST country in the world today. That should hold some merit. With people as passionate as you and I we will strive to maintain and make this country even better, right? ;).

sure- yeah, we're the freeEST, rah rah, yay yay. But that still doesn't give us license to embrace a faulty system or wrong law just because someone has tacked on duty and honor to it.

I think it’s wonderful that you object and that you live in a country in which you are free to do so. However, because it is currently a law that our predecessors voted on and passed, mere objections and failure to comply currently has its consequences. Initiatives and bills brought before our government for change will be the only road for change. The sit-in’s and peace rallies of the 60’s should have taught us that lesson. So work within the system to change the system. I just don’t see how not paying your taxes or just saying something is wrong is going to change anything.



Rosa Parks getting arrested was a pretty big deal.
The Underground Railroad was a pretty big deal.
"working within the system" only went so far w/ the british back at the beginning of our country.
Lesson Learned.
I'm all for working within the system where we can, but when THAT System only gets us so far, we have a right, duty, and obligation to throw off the oppressive gvt and seek to restore that which is right.
Sometimes getting arrested and dragging the laws into the light DO make a difference, and the more people that DO that, suffer the consequences, and bring more press to the issue, the better it is down the road.
hopefully ;)


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