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If you are opposed to abortion, what do you do for the unborn?

feet to the fire for this child i prayed

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#51 EthiopianFood

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:25 PM

Isn't there a certain hypocrisy in longing for a child through adoption, but only if he/she is "healthy" or "young"? Sorry, but you seem to come down hard on those of us who have a moral opposition to abortion, as if we need to back up that belief with actions you deem charitable. Yet, you want so desperately to adopt, but only a child who meets your exact criteria? There are many young children with special needs who desperately need homes.


Most women don't have abortions because the child has a developmental disability. The topic was, what are we doing or willing to do to support women who choose not to have an abortion? This is what I am willing to do. Not related to the OP, but to address your comment/question, I don't feel not being led to adopt a child with autism, reactive attachment disorder, s*xual acting out due to abuse, etc. etc. means I have exacting criteria. I don't know you, so I have absolutely no idea how much you do or do not know about the foster care system. Forgive me if you already know this, but most children in the system are there because of extreme circumstances with extreme consequences, possibly life-long, for the child and the child's future family. This is not something ANYONE should enter into without quite a bit of research and serious thought.

I don't think anyone has to fit my idea of what is charitable. My point was simply that it is inconsistent to care about unborn children, but not newly born children or the women who bore them. How this expresses itself will likely be different for different people. There are a great many people who do much, much more than I do to help. I am only addressing intent.

#52 theresatwist

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:25 PM

If you believe that abortion is a neutral choice and if you vote pro-choice, what do you do to help the women who are emotionally and psychologically damaged by abortion? Just wondering if you are aware of the trauma and stress that this causes many women and that in most cases, the women are not informed of this at the abortion clinic. Abortion is presented as an eraser; a simple plan - which it is most certainly NOT. Will the abortion doctor or clinic be there for the woman who is in grief and paralyzed with guilt over the loss of her child? If you are pro-choice, would you step up and help?


You make a good point. But there are woman who experience that same kind of grief when they learn that they are pregnant and don't have the resources to support the baby. There is a lot of pain and heartbreak that can and does take place either way. I vote Democratic/ pro-choice because I believe that their economic policies do more to help those in need and that would including women in this sort of situation.

Abortion clinics are not all abortion propaganda centers. Perhaps some are, I'm not denying that, but they certainly all aren't that way.

#53 cin

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:30 PM

I have two formerly unwanted children, Does that count? :D And we tried domestic adoption, but were not 'chosen' for over 2 years. So we put our money someplace that could guarantee a baby. Twice. Would love to adopt more if we could afford it. There are not enough babies out there, for the number of couples who want to adopt. We have donated a LOT of money to help orphanages overseas. And we do what I can to help local, at this stage in our lives, that is usually monetary.

#54 EthiopianFood

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:32 PM

I have two formerly unwanted children, Does that count? :D And we tried domestic adoption, but were not 'chosen' for over 2 years. So we put our money someplace that could guarantee a baby. Twice. Would love to adopt more if we could afford it. There are not enough babies out there, for the number of couples who want to adopt. We have donated a LOT of money to help orphanages overseas. And we do what I can to help local, at this stage in our lives, that is usually monetary.


I'm taking donations to adopt from India, if you ever feel led. :lol:

#55 Melinda in VT

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:39 PM

Let's start with the obvious then, a married mother who is at the end of the rope with her current kids should be using some sort of birth control. Here, we use condoms because that's what we're comfortable with and aren't ready for another baby.


Oh, I absolutely agree. However, condom babies and even vasectomy babies are not unheard of.

Should that birth control fail and a mother becomes pregnant, there are government programs that offer financial aid (medical assistance, WIC, food stamps, cash assistance, housing assistance, home energy assistance, childcare vouchers). There are churches with food pantries if you make too much for food stamps but still need help. There are people (like me) who are happy to watch your kids so you can get a break. There are Christian counseling places who offer counseling on a sliding scale if you are having trouble emotionally and need professional help.


There is help available. Whether it is accessible to any given woman and whether it is enough to enable her to appropriately handle another child varies from case to case. I think if we want to reduce the number of abortions, we should look at increasing the amount of help available to these women, not just the young unmarried teens, AND publicizing the available services. I know when I get overwhelmed, I am not an effective advocate for myself.

And some of this is stuff we can do just by being aware of those in our community who might be struggling. I need to be better at this myself.

#56 TXMomof4

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:40 PM

I don't feel the question is a red herring. While there are a great number of people who give money and service, esp on this board, there are some who toot both horns and do not. The OP is asking about those people who are opposed to both and if so what solutions do you have for the children if they keep them. Just being the Libra that I am..:coolgleamA:


Just like there are some people who tout themselves as environmentalists and are on everyone to save the planet but fly around in private jets, live in energy guzzling homes and drive behemoth vehicles that use more gas than most of us can justify.

With most things that people are passionate about, you generally don't hear the ones who do the most good. But we all have different gifts. I would rather help someone one on one than get on the rooftops and shout about how awful their situation is. But someone needs to be shouting, right? Should I only count it as helpful if I'm involved in an organization that helps droves? Or does my help of that one person count as living my belief?

#57 cin

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:41 PM

I'm taking donations to adopt from India, if you ever feel led. :lol:



No way! If I'm helping someone get a little Indian baby, it's gonna be ME!!!! That would be my 3rd daughter. Name of Tayla Grace. Yup, all I need is oh, an extra 20-30k :tongue_smilie:

#58 Jane

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:42 PM

Do any of you here in that other thread do anything to help these young mothers and their babies once they are actually born? My aunt is the ONLY person I have ever met who is staunchly opposed to abortion AND does something for the mothers and their babies AFTER they are born.



Honey, I assure you that there are plenty of warm-hearted women like your aunt. Here is a list of things that either families we know have done or we ourselves have done:

1) Taken in (non-related) teen mom and baby, offering help in numerous ways.
2) Adopted teen's baby.
3) Taken in teen's baby when mom/dad was unable to care for child for an extended period of time while parent gets the "help" she/he needs.
4) Donated new items or money to local centers dedicated to helping expecting teens.
5) Spoke to large groups of teens to give witness to the difficulties of teen pregnancy and/or premarital relations *before* they became teen moms.
6) Babysit for teen mom.
7) Passed on mildly used clothing/baby items to teen mom.
.....and on the flip side....
8) Stood beside teen moms whose grief was so tremendous after an abortion/series of abortions that they didn't want to continue in life. (This certainly doesn't represent *all* women who have had abortions, but it does reflect a very real % of the population.)

From your post, I can see you fully understand the tragedy of teen pregnancy; they simply are not ready (in most cased) to care for a baby. Most of these pregnancies reflect an immaturity and irresponsibility in the first place on the part of the parents; they are naive children who are not thinking through the consequences of their actions. These pregnancies needs to be prevented. We need to be supporting the teenagers of our country, helping them to grow up into responsible young adults. However, I cannot justify taking a baby's life based on a mother's error of judgment. A good question to ask is whether this policy has actually decreased the # of teen pregnancies in our society or increased them? Are teens more or less responsible today than before Roe vs. Wade?

Thank you for allowing me the privilege to speak on this topic. Thank you for your caring heart that dares to ask "What about the children?"

#59 Erica in PA

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:43 PM

I completely disagree that prolifers don't have an obligation to help those babies who will be born because the mother chose to give birth. Women have abortions because they don't know what to do with their baby. If you get them to birth their baby, you need to have a solution as to what to do with the baby.

Other than that, the REAL question is, why the heck do you care so much about the baby before it's born, but not afterward, and not for the mother of said child? This is true selfishness, to use your words but not do anything that actually costs you anything.


I couldn't disagree with you more. I think it is wonderful to help a needy woman and her child, and I know many people who do that very thing, but I completely disagree that it is for some reason *more* incumbent on "pro-lifers" than on anyone else to help them. It's like you're saying, "You pro-lifers got this woman into this mess, now you better help her." There are many circumstances that lead a woman ito have a child under less than ideal circumstances, and pro-life individuals are responsible for *none* of them, and are therefore are not under any extra obligation to help out, certainly not more than the rest of society is.

I find your second paragraph extremely insulting and offensive. I care about keeping the baby from being KILLED. I don't know why that is such a mystery to people, or why people find it so difficult to understand. If people were going around killing newborns, or new mothers, I can guarantee you that I would do all I could to stop that too. To suggest that because I might not do what you deem necessary for babies and mothers, to atone for my "pro-lifer" views, that I don't care about them and am SELFISH-- that is just beyond rude.

#60 Karenciavo

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:48 PM

I see that quite a few people are concerned and praying for a stranger who is pregnant. Will it end if she decides to keep the baby?

Do any of you here in that other thread do anything to help these young mothers and their babies once they are actually born?
My aunt is the ONLY person I have ever met who is staunchly opposed to abortion AND does something for the mothers and their babies AFTER they are born.


For a while I was a birth coach/mentor for a CPC in Philly. I have hosted baby showers for CPCs. Brought meals and offered other support to new moms who have gone through one of two local CPCs. And we give financially. People have different gifts and leadings. I am opposed to abortion and feel led to be active with my support, there are other issues that I support or oppose that I'm not actively doing something about, other than prayer and prayer changes things so I suppose that is something after all.

#61 Kathleen in VA

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:53 PM

If you get them to birth their baby, you need to have a solution as to what to do with the baby.


If you get them to birth the baby??? You mean, stop them from committing murder? Killing a person - a human being - is most commonly referred to as murder. So I stop someone from committing murder - from taking the life of an innocent human being who didn't ask to be conceived - didn't have a say about it - and then I'm responsible for the welfare of that baby? I'm responsible for a baby for which I played no part in conceiving? Huh????

Why didn't the mom (and dad!) think of that before they got themselves pregnant in the first place? Why is ok to behave irresponsibly and selfishly (have sex when you had no intention of taking responsiblity for any life that may be conceived) and then behave irresponsibly and selfishly again (take the innocent life through murder)? Killing babies is wrong - before and after they are born. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. And, please, spare me the arguments about how that's just unrealistic and not possible, and the other arugments about rape and incest. The vast majority of abortions are performed on young, unmarried women who chose to act selfishly with young irresponsible, childish "men."

Why are pro-choicers shocked and disturbed when mothers (and fathers for that matter) throw their newborns in dumpsters and off bridges, drive their toddlers into lakes, shake their babies to death, etc. sometimes killing their children only moments after giving birth, but find it perfectly acceptable for mothers to kill their children moments, days, weeks, months before they are born?

The responsibility for the welfare of the child lies squarely on the individuals who participated in the act that they knew could possibly produce a child. When I was pregnant with babies 3, 4 and 5 people would jokingly comment, "Don't you know what causes that?" It's only a joke because everyone knows what causes it.

It's commmendable and precious that there are so many crisis pregnancy centers aimed at supporting mothers through their pregnancies and beyond, but I do not think it is anyone's responsibility but the parents to take care of the children they produce.

As far as caring more for the babies than the moms? Well, yes, of course. The baby has no voice - had no say in its conception. The moms could have behaved responsibly - they had volition, a choice. The baby is an innocent, helpless participant and therefore needs more protection than the mom. The mother was in a position to determine the course of her life - the baby was not.

#62 battlemaiden

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:56 PM

I buy ultrasound machines for crisis pregnancy centers. Focus on the Family has a program that we have given to specifically for years.

#63 Joy at Home

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:00 PM

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Momto5girls Posted Image
Isn't there a certain hypocrisy in longing for a child through adoption, but only if he/she is "healthy" or "young"? Sorry, but you seem to come down hard on those of us who have a moral opposition to abortion, as if we need to back up that belief with actions you deem charitable. Yet, you want so desperately to adopt, but only a child who meets your exact criteria? There are many young children with special needs who desperately need homes.

Most women don't have abortions because the child has a developmental disability. The topic was, what are we doing or willing to do to support women who choose not to have an abortion? This is what I am willing to do. Not related to the OP, but to address your comment/question, I don't feel not being led to adopt a child with autism, reactive attachment disorder, s*xual acting out due to abuse, etc. etc. means I have exacting criteria. I don't know you, so I have absolutely no idea how much you do or do not know about the foster care system. Forgive me if you already know this, but most children in the system are there because of extreme circumstances with extreme consequences, possibly life-long, for the child and the child's future family. This is not something ANYONE should enter into without quite a bit of research and serious thought.

I don't think anyone has to fit my idea of what is charitable. My point was simply that it is inconsistent to care about unborn children, but not newly born children or the women who bore them. How this expresses itself will likely be different for different people. There are a great many people who do much, much more than I do to help. I am only addressing intent. ***


My point was, that you seem to feel that in order to justify our moral opposition to abortion we must take steps you deem charitable. Many of us give privately. I had a foster child for a year of a teenage mom who couldn't deal with the situation at the time.

When you voice loud, judgmental opinions, you open yourself up for same. My point was that you put out your desire to adopt as something noble, which it is. But you then list your criteria of young and healthy. All I'm saying is that there are many unwanted children with disabilities who need good homes, also. I had a situation at the hospital where a young mother had a child with Downs Syndrome and the adoptive parents in line to receive that baby didn't want him. Now that baby is in the system. So when I hear of families who desparately want to adopt, but only want a "healthy" child, it makes me sad.

Lisa

#64 battlemaiden

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:08 PM

I have only read a couple of pages of this thread, and although people disagree, I'm glad to see the complexities being discussed. This is good.

It isn't a simple topic, but to try and determine the future life of the unborn child is presumptuous.

With all the stormy turmoil surrounding the topic of abortion, I remain convinced that the life growing within a woman is worth protecting. It is in the calm, like under the ocean the surface of the water. Actually all children are. Babies born to stable, financially secure parents may soon end up children of the divorced, widowed, or bankrupted. They still deserve protecting.

#65 Jugglin'5

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:10 PM

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think it is wonderful to help a needy woman and her child, and I know many people who do that very thing, but I completely disagree that it is for some reason *more* incumbent on "pro-lifers" than on anyone else to help them. It's like you're saying, "You pro-lifers got this woman into this mess, now you better help her." There are many circumstances that lead a woman ito have a child under less than ideal circumstances, and pro-life individuals are responsible for *none* of them, and are therefore are not under any extra obligation to help out, certainly not more than the rest of society is.

I find your second paragraph extremely insulting and offensive. I care about keeping the baby from being KILLED. I don't know why that is such a mystery to people, or why people find it so difficult to understand. If people were going around killing newborns, or new mothers, I can guarantee you that I would do all I could to stop that too. To suggest that because I might not do what you deem necessary for babies and mothers, to atone for my "pro-lifer" views, that I don't care about them and am SELFISH-- that is just beyond rude.



Exactly.

#66 OnTheBrink

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:34 PM

I disagree that there is necessarily so much trauma in having an abortion. I have been surprised at the projections onto people who have had abortions that they all suffer from terrible trauma the rest of their lives. It simply is not true and so no argument can be built on it. I am sure it is true of some, and I am sure some could do with help in getting over the guilt. But for many, they truly feel it was the best thing in the circumstances and accept that, sad as the decision makes them for a while, it was the right thing to do. Or, they regret it but forvive themselves and move on- a healthy response! A lot depends on the mindset of the mother and also the support she receives.
Not everyone has the same beliefs around the life of the foetus or embryo. My beliefs are that the soul of the small being is very real and alive but it will move on to be born elsewhere where it is wanted. Millions of babies are miscarried every year. I am more concerned for the mother, to tell the truth. I think abortion is pretty horrible, but I put the mental and emotional health of the mother ahead of the foetus, wheras pro lifers seem to always only put the baby first and just about discard the mother.


Well, having been in and helped lead a group for post abortive women, I'd hazard to disagree with you. Our support group had mostly women who had no real religious beliefs, or had been pro-choice until they aborted. Personally, I believe there are more women who suffer emotionally from abortion that what is made known.

Referring to the bolded statement: If that were actually true, then there'd be no programs/agencies that help the mother with counseling, parenting classes, job skills and offer support after the baby arrives. Fact is, there ARE organizations that offer just that. It's not just about the baby. Yes, the first step is ensuring the baby isn't violently murdered. But what would be the point of ensuring a baby is born, if there is nothing to ensure that it will be in a home with a mother who loves him/her and has the skills and means to care for the child? It makes no sense at all to say ALL pro-lifers only care about the baby and not the mother. To truly care about the baby, you have to care about the mother.

#67 eternalknot

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:34 PM

I'm not opposed to abortion, but I think one way that the anti-abortion community could really help is through activism to reform antedeluvian adoption laws that don't always leave it such an attractive option to mothers (and viable option to prospective adoptive parents).

My family has experienced both sides of adoption - out of the family and into the family. We've run into so many families who only want to adopt white infants (and barring that domestically, head overseas to adopt a white child or asian) and we've run into agencies who will only place like ethnicities with like (so only brown babies with brown parents, black babies with black parents). It's so unfortunate, even if well-intentioned in theory. Adoption just isn't the happy ending so many of us wish that it were. And that's just placement issues, nevermind the open/closed stuff that still has to be sorted out between the involved parties ...

Side note - Adoption seems like the obvious win-win solution, but it can be wrought* with just as much guilt and emotional trauma downline (for the mother, for the child). I really don't think either option (adoption or abortion) has exclusive rights to the pain of the an unwanted pregnancy and resulting life-changing decision, ... it's such a situationally unique and personally affecting thing that one really can't accurately support the hyperbole found on these threads.


* is that the right word? Sounds okay in my head, looks weird in print ...

#68 EthiopianFood

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:44 PM

No way! If I'm helping someone get a little Indian baby, it's gonna be ME!!!! That would be my 3rd daughter. Name of Tayla Grace. Yup, all I need is oh, an extra 20-30k :tongue_smilie:


I thought her name was Ashni, but either way, we'll share her! :lol:

I find your second paragraph extremely insulting and offensive. I care about keeping the baby from being KILLED. I don't know why that is such a mystery to people, or why people find it so difficult to understand. If people were going around killing newborns, or new mothers, I can guarantee you that I would do all I could to stop that too. To suggest that because I might not do what you deem necessary for babies and mothers, to atone for my "pro-lifer" views, that I don't care about them and am SELFISH-- that is just beyond rude.


I keep trying to think of what exactly to say to this, but I guess it just all comes down to: I was simply expressing my opinion, just as you are now, only I wasn't directing my comments at any one person, which I personally WOULD find rude.

The vast majority of abortions are performed on young, unmarried women who chose to act selfishly with young irresponsible, childish "men."

I would really like to know the real statistics on this. What I have been told, and what I have read, says that most abortions are performed on married, "not a teenager" women who already have children. :confused:

Why are pro-choicers shocked and disturbed when mothers (and fathers for that matter) throw their newborns in dumpsters and off bridges, drive their toddlers into lakes, shake their babies to death, etc. sometimes killing their children only moments after giving birth, but find it perfectly acceptable for mothers to kill their children moments, days, weeks, months before they are born?

I have no idea, and it angers me as well.

As far as caring more for the babies than the moms? Well, yes, of course. The baby has no voice - had no say in its conception. The moms could have behaved responsibly - they had volition, a choice. The baby is an innocent, helpless participant and therefore needs more protection than the mom. The mother was in a position to determine the course of her life - the baby was not.


I think I cut the wrong part, but I see your point. I guess I give most people the benefit of the doubt (not that you do or don't), and feel both sides of pretty much any issue have their reasons for believing what they believe. I think most women DO feel bad about having an abortion, and they do it because they feel they have no other choice. I fully believe part of this is due to lack of education about fetal development, as well as accepting societal standards at face value. I also think women really need help. I don't understand why women can't use two forms of birth control any time they have sex if they know they don't want children, but I do know that people make mistakes. A baby shouldn't be a punishment for bad choices, and it almost seems like refusing to help women in this situation is making the baby into their "cross to bear." Obviously killing is killing, but life is just more complicated than that. To me, it's sort of like saying you believe in waiting to have tea until you're married, but then go on to do everything else leading up to that. Yes, technically, you have done the right thing, but it's like you have followed the letter of the law, rather than the intent of the law.


Quote:
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Originally Posted by Momto5girls Posted Image
My point was, that you seem to feel that in order to justify our moral opposition to abortion we must take steps you deem charitable. Many of us give privately. I had a foster child for a year of a teenage mom who couldn't deal with the situation at the time.

But then I certainly wasn't meaning you, or anyone in your situation. The OP was asking if people did more than just prevent abortions, and I said that I felt it was wrong NOT to do more, or better put, not to feel that it was something you needed to worry about. Unless I seriously misworded my statement, I wasn't asking anyone to justify anything. I didn't say you must either help the women too, or you can't say that abortion is murder.

When you voice loud, judgmental opinions, you open yourself up for same. My point was that you put out your desire to adopt as something noble, which it is. But you then list your criteria of young and healthy. All I'm saying is that there are many unwanted children with disabilities who need good homes, also. I had a situation at the hospital where a young mother had a child with Downs Syndrome and the adoptive parents in line to receive that baby didn't want him. Now that baby is in the system. So when I hear of families who desparately want to adopt, but only want a "healthy" child, it makes me sad.


I don't think adoption is noble, I think it is giving a child what they DESERVE, and in return, being blessed with what many would say is the greatest gift any of us can be given. When most people say "young and healthy," they mean a white, perfectly healthy newborn. This is not what I was saying for myself. It really was a side issue, and just a personal issue of mine coming out (I don't understand why money keeps children from getting homes). I completely agree that EVERY child deserves a home. I think we are coming from the same place, but once again, conversing over the internet on such topics leaves much room for misunderstanding.

#69 Kathleen in VA

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 10:09 PM

I've been giving this all some more thought and I'm thinking that some of the responsibility (not sure just how much - that's debatable) for unwanted pregnancies should go to the public school system for more or less promoting sex outside of marriage. Our entertainment industry should shoulder some responsibility as well. I realize neither of those will ever happen - the percentage of responsibility is unquantifiable and even if could be quantified, neither party would own up to it and do the right thing.

Life is complicated. Much grace is needed to get through it. We need grace from others and we need to show it to those who need it. I'm just particularly peeved at those who use abortion as their only form of birth control simply because it is available. They're called reproductive organs for a reason. When used the way they are intended, they cause reproduction.

I realize its a complicated issue. I just think the last person to take it out on is the helpless, voiceless, innocent baby. Is that really so hard to understand?

In many other circumstances in life we get ourselves in sticky situations. We make mistakes, those mistakes have consequences. We usually have to deal with those consequences and it can be very, very difficult. I'm thinking right now of a young 17yo boy who crashed head on into an SUV here in Stafford County yesterday killing a 38yo woman - a mother of four young children. That boy, driving a Mustang, crossed over the yellow line and will have to live with that driving error for the rest of his life. Bad choice, bad judgment, devastating consequence, life-long grief. I prayed for him. I cannot imagine the pain of everyone involved.

It just seems that abortion is a way of getting out of having to deal with the consequences of a poor choice at the expense of another human life. It's an immature response to the consequences of immature behavior. We would never stand for it under any other conditions - but we don't mind killing unborn babies. I just don't get it.

#70 Peek a Boo

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 10:52 PM

Many of us (myself anyway) that vote pro-choice might be willing to take a closer look at voting pro-life if we knew there were programs in place that offered help to both the mother and the child with the end goal in mind of helping the mother become a self sufficiant member of this society, regardless if they were offered by the government, private organizations, or charity.


Most people know, they just don't care.

With the ease of googling, it is impossible to NOT know about pro-life organizations that offer a tremendous amount of support unless one is deliberately not looking.

Manymanymany women who go in for an abortion turn down pleas and offers of help and instead go for the abortion.

i pulled a list off this site:
http://www.prolifeam...ganizations.cfm
I eliminated the "informational only" sites and would bet that if anyone contacted the groups below, you would either find a links page to MORE organizations or someone could put you in touch w/ an individual that would be willing to help a pregnant mother in any number of ways.
and that was just one of the first few sites google returned. The list would be amazingly long if i linked ALL the organizations out there.
I know there's at least a few organizations that meet your specific criteria.


# Adoption search engine - families who want to adopt unborn babies
# Already Loved - helping handicapped children
# American Life League - largest catholic pro-life organization
# BabyPartsTrafficking.org - helping to stop the sale of baby body-parts
# Baptists for Life - Bible based pro-life arguments & pro-life ministries
# Black Catholics for Life, aka the National Black Catholic Apostolate for Life
# Center for Life and Hope - Helping pregnant women make the right choice
# Christian Patriots for Life - promotes sanctity of life education
# Democrats For Life
# Elliot Institute (afterabortion.org) - post abortion information & research
# FAWNN.org - a site to asssist those affected by abortion
# Generations for Life - Pro-Life Action League's outreach to the next generation
# Gospel of Life Ministries
# GravityTeen.com - help for teens
# Human Life Alliance
# Human Life International - Catholics defending the sanctity of life
# Indiana Right to Life
# Life Legal Defense Foundation
# Lifesite.net - Prolife news + The Interim, pro-life pro-family newspaper
# May We Adopt - list of families wanting to adopt
# Missionaries to the Preborn
# Missionaries to the Unborn
# One More Soul - organization of pro-life physicians
# Operation Rescue
# Operation Rescue Boston
# Operation Save America
# OptionLine.org - online or telephone crisis help and referrals
# Pharmacists For Life International - prolife pharmacy association
# Presbyterians Pro-Life - restoring the Church's prolife witness
# Priests for Life - officially approved Catholic pro-life organization
# Project 33 - Great web site by prolife teens & for pro-life teens
# Pro-Life Action League
# Pro-Life America - youth oriented pro-life publication
# Pro-life Forum - Promoting respect for the sanctity of human life
# Pro-Life Missions
# Pro-Life Physician Network
# Pro-Life Wisconsin
# Republican National Coalition for Life
# Seminarian Life Link - Catholic anti-abortion pro-life organization
# Survivors - pro-life youth organization
# Susan B. Anthony List - prolife political campaigns & activists
# TeensForLife.com - a prolife web site just for teens
# The Constitution Party - A political party for true pro-family, pro-life candidates
# The Kansas Coalition for Life
# The Portland Porcupine - antiabortion prolife activism
# Vital Signs Ministries - Sidewalk counseling, pro-life arguments, etc.
# Voice for the Unborn - Blount County (TN) Right to Life

#71 blessed2fosteradopt

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 10:52 PM


On a personal note, my "contribution" is that I long to adopt some day. Unfortunately, I don't have $20,000 lying around for a child, and I am not able to care for the types of issues older children in the foster care system often have (and I'd be interested in a child up to about four, it's just that healthy children even this young aren't common). Talk about injustice. Only the middle class can adopt! Ugh.


I have two gorgeous babies (see photo) that I adopted through the foster care system. My son was placed with me at 6 days and my daughter at 4 weeks. They are now three. It didn't cost me a dime to adopt them and they are both perfectly healthy, just born to young mothers that didn't want to parent them. I thank God everyday that they chose life for them. There are plenty of healthy babies available through the foster care system if you are willing to take a risk and realize that adoption through foster care is not a sure thing and if (and sadly, a big IF for many) you are willing to adopt outside your race. If you really want to adopt in the future, consider becoming a foster parent.

#72 muffinmom

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 10:59 PM

I volunteered for a while at the most amazing center for women to go to who had unplanned pregnancies. I was trained and acted as a peer counselor. I also acted as an "advocate" for a young woman who chose to carry her baby...had a one-on-one mentoring-type relationship with her through the pregnancy and birth (and for a while after). I had to stop such involved work when my second child came along. But I still donate to this place and hope to be involved in the future, when my kids are older and more self-sufficient.

I would certainly help (and have helped) any random person in that situation, should they come along my path.

#73 EthiopianFood

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 11:07 PM

I have two gorgeous babies (see photo) that I adopted through the foster care system. My son was placed with me at 6 days and my daughter at 4 weeks. They are now three. It didn't cost me a dime to adopt them and they are both perfectly healthy, just born to young mothers that didn't want to parent them. I thank God everyday that they chose life for them. There are plenty of healthy babies available through the foster care system if you are willing to take a risk and realize that adoption through foster care is not a sure thing and if (and sadly, a big IF for many) you are willing to adopt outside your race. If you really want to adopt in the future, consider becoming a foster parent.


:001_wub: I'm pm'ing you, I don't want this to go even further OT! LOL

#74 A.D.

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 11:16 PM

If you get them to birth the baby??? You mean, stop them from committing murder? Killing a person - a human being - is most commonly referred to as murder. So I stop someone from committing murder - from taking the life of an innocent human being who didn't ask to be conceived - didn't have a say about it - and then I'm responsible for the welfare of that baby? I'm responsible for a baby for which I played no part in conceiving? Huh????

Why didn't the mom (and dad!) think of that before they got themselves pregnant in the first place? Why is ok to behave irresponsibly and selfishly (have sex when you had no intention of taking responsiblity for any life that may be conceived) and then behave irresponsibly and selfishly again (take the innocent life through murder)? Killing babies is wrong - before and after they are born. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. And, please, spare me the arguments about how that's just unrealistic and not possible, and the other arugments about rape and incest. The vast majority of abortions are performed on young, unmarried women who chose to act selfishly with young irresponsible, childish "men."

Why are pro-choicers shocked and disturbed when mothers (and fathers for that matter) throw their newborns in dumpsters and off bridges, drive their toddlers into lakes, shake their babies to death, etc. sometimes killing their children only moments after giving birth, but find it perfectly acceptable for mothers to kill their children moments, days, weeks, months before they are born?

The responsibility for the welfare of the child lies squarely on the individuals who participated in the act that they knew could possibly produce a child. When I was pregnant with babies 3, 4 and 5 people would jokingly comment, "Don't you know what causes that?" It's only a joke because everyone knows what causes it.

It's commmendable and precious that there are so many crisis pregnancy centers aimed at supporting mothers through their pregnancies and beyond, but I do not think it is anyone's responsibility but the parents to take care of the children they produce.

As far as caring more for the babies than the moms? Well, yes, of course. The baby has no voice - had no say in its conception. The moms could have behaved responsibly - they had volition, a choice. The baby is an innocent, helpless participant and therefore needs more protection than the mom. The mother was in a position to determine the course of her life - the baby was not.



You summed up quite nicely why the po-life side in this debate has made little headyway in reducing abortions, and why little is likely to change.
As long as the baby in question is looked upon as some consequence to be passed on to another (adoption) or a burden to bear (being raised by the mother/father) by the groups allegedly valuing its life, it will be difficult to get others to get on board.

#75 Erica in PA

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 07:01 AM

As long as the baby in question is looked upon as some consequence to be passed on to another (adoption) or a burden to bear (being raised by the mother/father) by the groups allegedly valuing its life, it will be difficult to get others to get on board.


It will be difficult to get people "on board" with not killing babies, because it's the easiest thing to do, period. People rarely choose self-sacrifice and the greater good, when it's *so* much easier to do what they want, in this case, even if it's at the expense of another person. I think it's ridiculous to lay the blame for abortions at the feet of pro-life individuals. Laughable, actually. The one group of people who are trying to prevent abortions (and the only ones who seem to do much to help women who choose not to have abortions) are the ones responsible for it?? Not the pro-abortion folks, not the public schools, not the entertainment industry-- no, it's the way pro-life groups frame the discussion that's really the problem. :lol:

#76 Soph the vet

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 07:12 AM

Most people know, they just don't care.

With the ease of googling, it is impossible to NOT know about pro-life organizations that offer a tremendous amount of support unless one is deliberately not looking.

Manymanymany women who go in for an abortion turn down pleas and offers of help and instead go for the abortion.

i pulled a list off this site:
http://www.prolifeam...ganizations.cfm
I eliminated the "informational only" sites and would bet that if anyone contacted the groups below, you would either find a links page to MORE organizations or someone could put you in touch w/ an individual that would be willing to help a pregnant mother in any number of ways.
and that was just one of the first few sites google returned. The list would be amazingly long if i linked ALL the organizations out there.
I know there's at least a few organizations that meet your specific criteria.


# Adoption search engine - families who want to adopt unborn babies
# Already Loved - helping handicapped children
# American Life League - largest catholic pro-life organization
# BabyPartsTrafficking.org - helping to stop the sale of baby body-parts
# Baptists for Life - Bible based pro-life arguments & pro-life ministries
# Black Catholics for Life, aka the National Black Catholic Apostolate for Life
# Center for Life and Hope - Helping pregnant women make the right choice
# Christian Patriots for Life - promotes sanctity of life education
# Democrats For Life
# Elliot Institute (afterabortion.org) - post abortion information & research
# FAWNN.org - a site to asssist those affected by abortion
# Generations for Life - Pro-Life Action League's outreach to the next generation
# Gospel of Life Ministries
# GravityTeen.com - help for teens
# Human Life Alliance
# Human Life International - Catholics defending the sanctity of life
# Indiana Right to Life
# Life Legal Defense Foundation
# Lifesite.net - Prolife news + The Interim, pro-life pro-family newspaper
# May We Adopt - list of families wanting to adopt
# Missionaries to the Preborn
# Missionaries to the Unborn
# One More Soul - organization of pro-life physicians
# Operation Rescue
# Operation Rescue Boston
# Operation Save America
# OptionLine.org - online or telephone crisis help and referrals
# Pharmacists For Life International - prolife pharmacy association
# Presbyterians Pro-Life - restoring the Church's prolife witness
# Priests for Life - officially approved Catholic pro-life organization
# Project 33 - Great web site by prolife teens & for pro-life teens
# Pro-Life Action League
# Pro-Life America - youth oriented pro-life publication
# Pro-life Forum - Promoting respect for the sanctity of human life
# Pro-Life Missions
# Pro-Life Physician Network
# Pro-Life Wisconsin
# Republican National Coalition for Life
# Seminarian Life Link - Catholic anti-abortion pro-life organization
# Survivors - pro-life youth organization
# Susan B. Anthony List - prolife political campaigns & activists
# TeensForLife.com - a prolife web site just for teens
# The Constitution Party - A political party for true pro-family, pro-life candidates
# The Kansas Coalition for Life
# The Portland Porcupine - antiabortion prolife activism
# Vital Signs Ministries - Sidewalk counseling, pro-life arguments, etc.
# Voice for the Unborn - Blount County (TN) Right to Life

Oh, c'mon Peek, is this all you could find?:lol:
You forgot New Life Family Services, one of my personal favorites.
And I agree with everything Kathleen in VA said or will say probably.

#77 Guest_Barb B_*

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 07:20 AM

[quote name='A.D.']As long as the baby in question is looked upon as some consequence to be passed on to another (adoption)

Excuse me but my I don't look at my adopted child as some consequence that was passed on to me! That is a rude suggestion. I don't think his birth mom does either. He is just as much my child as my children that were born to me!

Barb

#78 Elaine

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 07:32 AM

There are programs in place to help young mothers and children. Crisis Pregnancy Centers help with counseling, clothes, cribs, diapers, formula (if necessary), etc. They also will help the young woman approach her boyfriend and parents. If kicked out of her home, they will help her find another place or another family to stay at/with. They will assist her with learning to budget and entering other programs that will help her gain self sufficiency. They also will help connect her with adoption services if she so chooses.

There are also group homes that assist a young mother with a place to live, an education, help her acquire proper medical care, offer child care once the baby is born, etc.

Most of these places get bashed by a good portion of the "pro-choice" movement, because they are supported by people of faith (most particularly Christian). However, that has been the history of the church. Most hospitals were initially started and supported by churches as well as group homes for teens, orphanages, elderly care, etc.


Yes, this is true. Sometimes the biggest help you can be to someone is teaching them how to live on their own.

We donate to our church food pantry, babysit for single moms, and in the past I have donated furniture, dishes, baby clothes and the like.

#79 Peek a Boo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 08:04 AM

It will be difficult to get people "on board" with not killing babies, because it's the easiest thing to do, period. .... I think it's ridiculous to lay the blame for abortions at the feet of pro-life individuals. Laughable, actually. The one group of people who are trying to prevent abortions (and the only ones who seem to do much to help women who choose not to have abortions) are the ones responsible for it?? Not the pro-abortion folks, not the public schools, not the entertainment industry-- no, it's the way pro-life groups frame the discussion that's really the problem.


no kidding!!!

the reason the po-life side in this debate has made little headway in reducing abortions, and why little is likely to change, is the exact same reason that abolitionists made little headway for so long.

As long as the baby in question is looked upon as some "bunch of cells" that is a "potential, not an actual" people will choose to kill a human for convenience, and/or will fight for others to have the right to kill a human for convenience.

Edited by Peek a Boo, 20 July 2009 - 08:16 AM.


#80 mommaduck

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 08:10 AM

I have two gorgeous babies (see photo) that I adopted through the foster care system. My son was placed with me at 6 days and my daughter at 4 weeks. They are now three. It didn't cost me a dime to adopt them and they are both perfectly healthy, just born to young mothers that didn't want to parent them. I thank God everyday that they chose life for them. There are plenty of healthy babies available through the foster care system if you are willing to take a risk and realize that adoption through foster care is not a sure thing and if (and sadly, a big IF for many) you are willing to adopt outside your race. If you really want to adopt in the future, consider becoming a foster parent.



Your babies are beautiful!

#81 Laurie4b

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:01 AM

I see that quite a few people are concerned and praying for a stranger who is pregnant. Will it end if she decides to keep the baby?

Do any of you here in that other thread do anything to help these young mothers and their babies once they are actually born?
My aunt is the ONLY person I have ever met who is staunchly opposed to abortion AND does something for the mothers and their babies AFTER they are born.

I ask this question because I have had conversations with people who are opposed to abortions AND financial aid to unwed mothers.
Don't these people NEED foodstamps to keep their kids fed?
Far too often the unborn children are a priority but once they are born they are forgotten.

So I wonder if anyone here is like my aunt and puts their money, energy, or time where their mouth is.

Not being snarky - just curious to know.
I love my aunt dearly even though I am prochoice.
And I repect her because she works for her cause and doesn't just give voice to it.
She really helps the women who want to keep their babies but see no other choice.


That's interesting...the majority of pro-life people whom I know do things for the unborn and born.

Personally: I've been a foster parent 3 times, have had a pregnant roommate and cared for her after a stillbirth, have had a roommate who was a single mom (both roommates paid the rent, but I was a single young adult willing to provide emotional support; the first roommate stayed even after I was married because she needed that stability right then --we gave up our "honeymooners alone" stage in marriage), given (no payment) a room in my home to a young woman who had lost a baby at birth and later to this same woman who gave another baby up for adoption --after the adoption, contribute to a pregnancy support center that provides services before and after pregnancy to low income mothers, primarily single mothers, etc.

#82 blessed2fosteradopt

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:34 AM

Your babies are beautiful!



Thank you! I am truly so blessed and so happy that the birth moms of my precious babies chose life for them!

#83 Katrina

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:39 AM

I guess I don't understand why putting a baby up for adoption many times isn't an option for people considering abortion... Adoption is so much more a better option than killing an unwanted baby. Abortion is the most selfish act I can think of... and I just can't understand the pro-choice mentality. The baby didn't do anything wrong - especially nothing that would deserve death.

I, personally, would adopt in a heartbeat, no matter what the sacrifice, so that a baby could live.


Personally, I would love to see adoption as a more viable option. I haven't read past your current post, but just because someone is pro-choice does not mean they are pro-abortion. Part of MY concern is if we outlaw abortion then we as a society will just say "problem solved." Having abortion move back underground does not solve the problem. Trust me, I can name plenty of reasons why not to have an abortion.

#84 teraberry

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:42 AM

I think the real issue on abortion is pretty simple. If you can tell me when an unborn baby is considered a life, then you can tell me when abortion is okay. I haven't met anyone yet who can tell me, "I know without a doubt that an unborn baby becomes it's own life when they are x number of weeks from conception. Unless you are completely sure about this fact, you should not give the mother the choice to potentially kill another human being.

Psaslm 139 says:

13For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

That is enough for me to be Pro-Life!

#85 drama_mama

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 10:08 AM

Putting this out there even though it is very personal and private.

I am 35 years old, recently divorced Mother, my youngest child being 8. I obviously know what causes pregnancy and how to prevent it, I also thought the same way the OP did, what do all these pro-life people do for the unborn other than tell others what to do with their bodies.

Well I have found out. I am pregnant. It was not planned but a blessing none the less. I was scared, panicked and a little sick over the entire thing in all reality. I called a local CPC because I needed proof of pregnancy to see if I was eligible for medicaid (whole different topic so lets not debate that). The CPC in my small town is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I will not need a lot of the material things because I have 9 months to plan and can hopefully find most of what I need through freecycle, friends and garage sales but they are there if I need them. They have provided a great emotional support.

The funny thing is the crisis pregnancy center does not get some of the things that would help mothers save money. When filling out the form of what I may need I put cloth diapers, a nursing pillow, a sling and things like that on the list and they said they almost never get those things.

It has made me feel better simply knowing they are there none the less.

#86 Katrina

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 10:15 AM

[quote name='Peek a Boo']Most people know, they just don't care.

Frankly, I haven't been in a situation where I needed this type of support so no, I truly don't know what's out there. And frankly, I don't see how you can make such a blanket statement saying what most poeple know. There's no possible way you can know what other people know. (I feel like I'm talking in a circle, you know??? :D)

With the ease of googling, it is impossible to NOT know about pro-life organizations that offer a tremendous amount of support unless one is deliberately not looking.

And you know what? You're probably correct on this point. But (assuming teen pregnancy here) the organization that gets the most media play is Planned Parenthood. That's where I went when I needed to get the pill. And I think that when girls get pregnant, they probably are scared and instead of taking the time to think and research it, they go to the first place they've heard about...aka Planned Parenthood.

Manymanymany women who go in for an abortion turn down pleas and offers of help and instead go for the abortion.

I do think that abortion is so polarizing that people refuse to listen to the other side, even when they should. I'm sure pro-life people get tired of the names they get called, and I'm pretty darn sure pro-choice people are tired of the names they get called as well. I personally don't see how we plan on solving this issue when our (as a society) discussion skills are no better than a 5 year olds.

For obvious reasons, the only times we as a nation discuss the legalities of abortion are during elections, and while I think seperation of church and state is a good thing, I do wish all these types of organizations that you listed could be brought out for a "real" discussion about women's options. I admit, I'm guilty as well. We tend to focus on issues that concern us directly. I know tons about homeschooling because I homeschool, I know tons about cubscouts because I was a cubscout leader. I tend to follow discussions about possibilites of spinal cord regeneration because my mother was a quadriplegic. I don't follow cancer treatment developments because I don't have cancer.

I do try to work with teens when I can in volunteer positions because I think that busy teens are less likely to get into trouble. I would never have an abortion unless it wasn't a viable pregnancy (like a tubal pregnancy) and (not or) my life was in jepordy as a result, so no, I don't know about all the different organizations. (and I knew I'd never be a teen mother because I wasn't engaging in certain behaviors.)






#87 Nakia

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 10:21 AM

Putting this out there even though it is very personal and private.

I am 35 years old, recently divorced Mother, my youngest child being 8. I obviously know what causes pregnancy and how to prevent it, I also thought the same way the OP did, what do all these pro-life people do for the unborn other than tell others what to do with their bodies.

Well I have found out. I am pregnant. It was not planned but a blessing none the less. I was scared, panicked and a little sick over the entire thing in all reality. I called a local CPC because I needed proof of pregnancy to see if I was eligible for medicaid (whole different topic so lets not debate that). The CPC in my small town is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I will not need a lot of the material things because I have 9 months to plan and can hopefully find most of what I need through freecycle, friends and garage sales but they are there if I need them. They have provided a great emotional support.

The funny thing is the crisis pregnancy center does not get some of the things that would help mothers save money. When filling out the form of what I may need I put cloth diapers, a nursing pillow, a sling and things like that on the list and they said they almost never get those things.

It has made me feel better simply knowing they are there none the less.


:grouphug:

This happened to one of my best friends. She and her husband divorced, they had three kids, and she got pregnant on the Nuvaring. It was hard, but she now has a beautiful two yr old little girl.

Praying for you. Where are you located? PM if you want to. I'd love to help you out.

#88 Katrina

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:07 AM

[quote name='Kathleen in VA']

Why are pro-choicers shocked and disturbed when mothers (and fathers for that matter) throw their newborns in dumpsters and off bridges, drive their toddlers into lakes, shake their babies to death, etc. sometimes killing their children only moments after giving birth, but find it perfectly acceptable for mothers to kill their children moments, days, weeks, months before they are born?

See, to me that's the whole point of the matter. Why is it alright to outlaw abortion and then not do anything to help prevent the mothers from throwing their babies in the dumpster or off bridges because they feel that they have no other options. Yes, as has been pointed out they really do have other options, but when freaked out they don't research them, use them, or think about them even.

The responsibility for the welfare of the child lies squarely on the individuals who participated in the act that they knew could possibly produce a child.

Personally, if the responsibility for the child is the parents, then we have no right making laws about the child, born or unborn. If the responibility for caring and wellbeing is the parents, then why don't we get rid of laws preventing child abuse? Why not let homeless kids wonder the streets picking through garbage bags looking for food. After all, it's not my responsibility.

Now, I know that's not what your saying, so please don't get take it the wrong way. I'm just pointing out that we do already assume the wellbeing of children society's responsibility (teachers can be prosecuted if they suspect child abuse and not report it, we pay for police and social workers to remove children from abusive situations, etc.) Just food for thought.

Seriously, someone's going to have to teach me how to multi quote. :glare:

#89 teraberry

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:15 AM

For those in this thread who are pro-choice. Can you tell me at what week after conception you think the woman no longer should have the choice to have an abortion and why? Or if you think it is fine as long as she is still pregnant?

#90 Karen sn

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:36 AM

Putting this out there even though it is very personal and private.

I am 35 years old, recently divorced Mother, my youngest child being 8. I obviously know what causes pregnancy and how to prevent it, I also thought the same way the OP did, what do all these pro-life people do for the unborn other than tell others what to do with their bodies.

Well I have found out. I am pregnant. It was not planned but a blessing none the less. I was scared, panicked and a little sick over the entire thing in all reality. I called a local CPC because I needed proof of pregnancy to see if I was eligible for medicaid (whole different topic so lets not debate that). The CPC in my small town is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I will not need a lot of the material things because I have 9 months to plan and can hopefully find most of what I need through freecycle, friends and garage sales but they are there if I need them. They have provided a great emotional support.

The funny thing is the crisis pregnancy center does not get some of the things that would help mothers save money. When filling out the form of what I may need I put cloth diapers, a nursing pillow, a sling and things like that on the list and they said they almost never get those things.

It has made me feel better simply knowing they are there none the less.


I have a nursing pillow you can have. I will send it to you.
I got it from Bonnie in Va. here on these boards.

#91 Karen sn

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:38 AM

It is quite refreshing to know that so many people on here help out the moms who want to keep their babies but are lost. Very nice indeed.

#92 Kathleen in VA

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:38 AM

[quote name='Katrina'][quote name='Kathleen in VA']

Why are pro-choicers shocked and disturbed when mothers (and fathers for that matter) throw their newborns in dumpsters and off bridges, drive their toddlers into lakes, shake their babies to death, etc. sometimes killing their children only moments after giving birth, but find it perfectly acceptable for mothers to kill their children moments, days, weeks, months before they are born?

See, to me that's the whole point of the matter. Why is it alright to outlaw abortion and then not do anything to help prevent the mothers from throwing their babies in the dumpster or off bridges because they feel that they have no other options. Yes, as has been pointed out they really do have other options, but when freaked out they don't research them, use them, or think about them even.

The responsibility for the welfare of the child lies squarely on the individuals who participated in the act that they knew could possibly produce a child.

Personally, if the responsibility for the child is the parents, then we have no right making laws about the child, born or unborn. If the responibility for caring and wellbeing is the parents, then why don't we get rid of laws preventing child abuse? Why not let homeless kids wonder the streets picking through garbage bags looking for food. After all, it's not my responsibility.

Now, I know that's not what your saying, so please don't get take it the wrong way. I'm just pointing out that we do already assume the wellbeing of children society's responsibility (teachers can be prosecuted if they suspect child abuse and not report it, we pay for police and social workers to remove children from abusive situations, etc.) Just food for thought.

Seriously, someone's going to have to teach me how to multi quote. :glare:[/quote]

You and me both on the multi quote thingy.

I'm thinking the reason it is ok to outlaw abortion is because abortion is taking the life of another human being, also known as murder. Murder is a crime. I have a very difficult time understanding why killing an unborn human is not considered murder just like killing a just born human is murder. As far has helping them not throw their babies in dumpsters? I don't know why that's my responsibility. When I say responsibility, I mean the bottom line of who gets punished if they don't do the right thing. Of course, if I personally knew someone that desperate, I would do all I could to help her/him find a better solution. But technically, legally, why should I be responsible for the poor choices other people make? In a court of law I have to own up to my own choices. Everyone does. I can understand wanting to help a person, but wanting to help or seeing a need does not equate to my being responsible.

I'm not sure what you mean about having no right to make laws about protecting children from abuse if children are the responsibility of their parents. I'm not seeing why it is not right to make laws governing the treatment of children simply because children are the responsibility of their parents.:001_huh: The fact that children are the responsibility of their parents means that both unborn and born children should be nurtured, loved and protected by their parents. The law is there to guarantee that they get that nurture, love and protection. If people always did the right thing we wouldn't need laws. People don't, so we do.

#93 Peek a Boo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:43 AM

See, to me that's the whole point of the matter. Why is it alright to outlaw abortion and then not do anything to help prevent the mothers from throwing their babies in the dumpster or off bridges because they feel that they have no other options. Yes, as has been pointed out they really do have other options, but when freaked out they don't research them, use them, or think about them even. [/COLOR]


THAT is the point:
being freaked out doesn't give you the right to do the wrong thing.

and as you conceded, people already ARE doing quite a bit of things to help prevent mothers from killing their children. And yet that still gets ignored and the perception --feeling- of having no help continue to be the crux of the argument.

So is it is alright to outlaw abortion on demand because people ARE attempting to offer multiple avenues of help for mothers in all sorts of situations? I'm sure that most people who want to keep the right to kill a human for convenience via abortion on demand as being legal would disagree and say that NO amount of help would make it ok to outlaw abortion.

It's alright to outlaw abortion because human rights should be just that: human rights.

..............................
I've already explained in the ectogenesis thread my point about allowing removal to maintain the woman's right, but doing so in a manner that attempts to preserve the life of the human inside her.


#94 Peek a Boo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:59 AM

[quote name='Katrina'][quote name='Peek a Boo']Most people know, they just don't care.

Frankly, I haven't been in a situation where I needed this type of support so no, I truly don't know what's out there. And frankly, I don't see how you can make such a blanket statement saying what most poeple know. There's no possible way you can know what other people know. (I feel like I'm talking in a circle, you know??? :D)

With the ease of googling, it is impossible to NOT know about pro-life organizations that offer a tremendous amount of support unless one is deliberately not looking.

And you know what? You're probably correct on this point. But (assuming teen pregnancy here) the organization that gets the most media play is Planned Parenthood. That's where I went when I needed to get the pill. And I think that when girls get pregnant, they probably are scared and instead of taking the time to think and research it, they go to the first place they've heard about...aka Planned Parenthood. [/QUOTE]

ok, walk me through this...... you admit that it is ridiculously easy to get information about abortion alternatives, yet simply have not. Yet you base your decision to be pro-choice on having not done any research about the alternatives?

[quote name='Katrina']

Manymanymany women who go in for an abortion turn down pleas and offers of help and instead go for the abortion.

I do think that abortion is so polarizing that people refuse to listen to the other side, even when they should. I'm sure pro-life people get tired of the names they get called, and I'm pretty darn sure pro-choice people are tired of the names they get called as well. I personally don't see how we plan on solving this issue when our (as a society) discussion skills are no better than a 5 year olds.[/QUOTE]
I'm not interested in names that may or may not characterize me accurately.
And if someone is going to get more hung up on names they are being called than humans that are being killed for convenience, then that says quite a bit about their credibility.

It's not our discussion skills that are lacking: it's that even a 5yo can look at a picture of a human at 8weeks development and ask what that baby is doing. It's not our discussion skills that are the problem: our objective science has already made it pretty clear what is going on, and people refuse to admit it, acknowledge it, or apply it. It has become ok to eliminate religion and philosophy from science when it comes to evolution, but those same principles are clung to in some incredible "debate" on whether this tiny human is even a human or alive.

[quote name='Katrina']

For obvious reasons, the only times we as a nation discuss the legalities of abortion are during elections, and while I think seperation of church and state is a good thing, I do wish all these types of organizations that you listed could be brought out for a "real" discussion about women's options. I admit, I'm guilty as well. We tend to focus on issues that concern us directly. [/QUOTE]

those organizations very often ARE consulted, and many of them are NOT religious.

You have probably encountered times in the following of your own interested issues where people are either ignored, blackballed, or deliberately discredited. You also know that even tho "we as a nation" discuss those issues quite a bit, but "we as the media" don't make it as public.

i do think our education system has let us down substantially.
We assume that since we don't follow the specific news of an issue that there ISN't any [per the OP of this thread], and we make extremely important decisions about who we vote for based on a perceived lack of action.

#95 Kathleen in VA

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:02 PM

This is response to RaeAnne's request for stastitics regarding who gets the most abortions. Taken from a pro-choice website:

(http://www.prochoice.../women_who.html)

Marital Status

Most women getting abortions (83%) are unmarried; 67% have never married, and 16% are separated, divorced, or widowed. Married women are significantly less likely than unmarried women to resolve unintended pregnancies through abortion.

Age

Women between the ages of 15 and 19 account for about 19% of all abortions; women 20 to 24 account for another 33% (that's more than half when you combine these two age groups which is what I mean when I say young -Kathleen); and about 25% of abortions are obtained by women who are 30 or older. Calculating abortion rates, older teenagers and young adults have the highest abortion rates, while women younger than 15 and older than 35 have the lowest.

#96 Peek a Boo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:06 PM

I'm thinking the reason it is ok to outlaw abortion is because abortion is taking the life of another human being, also known as murder. Murder is a crime. I have a very difficult time understanding why killing an unborn human is not considered murder just like killing a just born human is murder.


I understand, I simply disagree.

legally speaking, murder is an unlawful killing of another human. We have various forms of legal killing of people [homicide], including self defense, in the line of duty, death penalty, and accidental.

many who will fight to protect the right to kill a human for convenience via abortion on demand are doing so because they believe the right of the woman to her body outweighs the right of the human inside her to live. i don't find that a completely reasonable premise when taking proportional use of force into account.

Abortion is currently legal.
When those of us who oppose abortion refer to it as murder, we are speaking as if it is so obviously wrong it should be illegal. If you check out abolitionist literature from the earlier era of legal slavery one can find similar remarks.

Edited by Peek a Boo, 20 July 2009 - 12:17 PM.
clarify --and add more :)


#97 Peek a Boo

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:10 PM

You and me both on the multi quote thingy.


:-)

try here and practice:
http://www.welltrain...ead.php?t=95458

#98 babysparkler

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:14 PM

I completely disagree that prolifers don't have an obligation to help those babies who will be born because the mother chose to give birth. Women have abortions because they don't know what to do with their baby. If you get them to birth their baby, you need to have a solution as to what to do with the baby.


adoption

#99 Erica in PA

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:21 PM

[quote name='Peek a Boo'][quote name='Katrina']

It's not our discussion skills that are lacking: it's that even a 5yo can look at a picture of a human at 8weeks development and ask what that baby is doing.


[/quote]
:iagree: In fact, my kids were just looking at a sonogram video of their new cousin, at 8 weeks gestation, and were marveling at that tiny baby moving around. My dd actually said, "Wow, he's really ALIVE!!!!"

There are very few adults who don't know that that fetus is a living human-- many people just don't care.

#100 babysparkler

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 12:23 PM

[quote name='Katrina'][quote name='Kathleen in VA']

See, to me that's the whole point of the matter. Why is it alright to outlaw abortion and then not do anything to help prevent the mothers from throwing their babies in the dumpster or off bridges because they feel that they have no other options. Yes, as has been pointed out they really do have other options, but when freaked out they don't research them, use them, or think about them even.
[/quote]

My ds (now age 4) was a part of a texas-wide television campaign to get the word out about the "Baby Moses" law in Texas... we spent 6 hours in 100 degree heat shooting a public service announcement that has saved over a dozen lives in Texas to date. I wish the tv stations would show this PSA more, but I have only seen it shown when babies have been saved and the news is focusing on it. We give our time, and our finances to save babies. Here is the link to our website (I encourage you to get involved!):

http://www.babymosesdallas.org/


What's with the ads?