Math - In a Rut!

[parias1126]

My 16 year old daughter (Junior this upcoming year) has always struggled with Math. She really just doesn't "get it"! We did TT Pre-Algebra and followed that this past year by TT Algebra 1. We had her tested as required in our State (NC) and her Math tested out at 7.6 (7th grade, 6th month). I was completely astonished since the prior year she tested out on grade level!

 

I came home and handed her the TT Chap 1 Test to complete for me so I could see where she was. She completely understood this all year long (or so I thought! :confused:) She probably got 2 problems right out of the whole test! :001_huh:

 

Anyway, I contacted a Math tutor who has been working through it with her this summer and she is doing much better, but still doesn't completely "get it". Her tutor seems to think that she will be ready to move onto Algebra II. Me? I am not so sure!! She is only a quarter of the way through the Algebra I TT book and we are over half way done with summer.

 

She will be a Junior this year and wants to switch to Saxon since that is really the only time she really understood Math prior to high school (or so she tells me now).

 

My problem is this...

 

If I switch to Saxon, I would want her to start with the Algebra 1 book as it has a bit of Geometry throughout the text. I don't think she could move right into the Algebra II text. We only have 2 years of high school left.

 

She says now that she doesn't want to attend college which makes me sad, but I am not going to push her to do something she doesn't want to do. I am still trying to make sure she has all the credits she needs (in case she changes her mind). She wants to be a cosmetologist/make-up artist and I believe she will be amazing at this!

 

I just do not feel confident giving her a credit for Algebra 1 when she has not retained much and we can't move on until she completely understands the concepts. Do I purchase the Saxon Algebra 1 along with the DIVE CDs (she likes to do her Math independently since we butt heads a lot of the time). She does have her tutor for one hour a week though (not even sure if thats enough), and let her do Algebra 1 all over again this year? I think it would be much needed review for her and she would also get some Geometry. Hopefully, we would be able to go on to Algebra 2 her Senior year, but then what happens with only 2 credits?

 

I am so confused and CAN NOT LOOK at ONE MORE textbook sample online!

 

WWYD???? :bigear::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Jann in TX]

My dd was SLOW to 'understand' Algebra--and I'm a MATH teacher who specializes in reaching students who struggle! This is just the way she is wired. 15 years ago she would have been right on target for graduation--by current 'standards' she is 2 years behind!

 

At first I stressed--but in REALITY--my dd will not be going to a 4-year college. She will be attending our local CC...but may take developmental courses for a year or so... she has a great job (but nothing she can 'live' off of) and is a really neat person!!! She is just not the academic type and I've finally realized that THAT IS JUST PERFECTLY FINE!

 

If your dd struggled with TT's Algebra 1 then please DO NOT put her back in Saxon--their Algebra program is TOUGH and even with a tutor and the videos she would most likely have a difficult time! TT is much easier than Saxon--and the two programs are set up in much the same way--but with Saxon there is even LESS practice with new concepts each day! Stay with TT or have her re-take Algebra 1 with a more traditional program like Lial's.

[Mom0012]

Sorry to hijack this, but Jann, what algebra programs do you recommend for children that need lots of review and practice?

 

Lisa

[LoriM]

I agree with Jann (as usual!). Don't send her to Saxon Algebra 1. You might consider Saxon Math 87, and work lessons 40-120 in "80 days back to math." Now, both my girls are mathy kids, but even so, it's easy to fall behind. One year, we did exactly this in 90 days. 80 Math lessons in 90 days. (Yes, even Sunday!) After ramping up in Math 87, you then could go into Algebra 1, and finish it by the end of the year.

 

What you could *not* do with Saxon is "one lesson every couple of days" or "wait until she understands"...

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd go with Saxon. I would get the Lial's Basic College Math, and really work for understanding this year. Accuracy, rework, rewrite mistakes, etc. Then move to Lial's College Algebra (which is basically Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 together) for senior year.

 

AND, I'm going to say something very radical...She should get an Algebra 1 credit for her work last year. How many PS teachers say, "Well, she passed my class last year, but when I got her back for Algebra 2 she had forgotten everything, so I'm taking back the credit I awarded?" NONE. She gets the credit for the work done, diligently, faithfully and consistently. Evaluate YOURSELF harshly. Did you check her work daily? Correct her errors? Give her 15 more example problems when she missed a concept, and then have her rework the lesson?

 

You have to teach your child math. Yes, even in Jann's case, that doesn't always work the way we'd like. But I would *never* not give my child a credit for her diligent work for the year. She might get a "C" but she would not lose the credit. I'd definitely "grade-replace" if she repeated the course.

 

In math, there is either knowledge, or a lack of knowledge. Students don't know how to do something *yet.* If a kid is having a problem with a concept, it could be foundational material that they don't understand, not just the new concept. Sometimes I have to back all the way up to a very simple idea they do understand, and build the problem to the point that they follow every single step. I work the problem, writing an "interlinear" example, where I write *IN ENGLISH* the questions they should be asking themselves from step-to-step, so that they have a translation for when they get home on their own (or off in their room alone!). The idea is that you have draw them into asking themselves the right questions, not just following a pattern of a solution.

 

Anyway, definitely consider carefully your daughter's next steps in math. The last thing you want to do is assume she'll never do more math (in fact, you want to encourage her to just start where she is, and never stop studying math!). But you will set her up for failure and stopping her study of mathematics much too soon if you push her forward to "do math" she doesn't understand. Better to regress, and be confident, than to push forward and be shaky on the way through the material. If she is going to CC, there are plenty of math courses there to transition her to College Algebra and beyond. Our CC even offers Geometry.

 

Best,

 

Lori

[MyThreeSons]

She is just not the academic type and I've finally realized that THAT IS JUST PERFECTLY FINE!

 

It seems that most people expect my sons to love math as much as I do, but they simply don't. My oldest is very much into art and music. He did get thru Algebra, Geometry and a consumer math class. It's been hard for me to be okay with this, but I'm getting there. It's so good to hear from another math teacher who is in a similar situation!!

[parias1126]

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd go with Saxon. I would get the Lial's Basic College Math, and really work for understanding this year. Accuracy, rework, rewrite mistakes, etc. Then move to Lial's College Algebra (which is basically Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 together) for senior year.

 

 

 

Does Lial's have a CD/dvd-rom to go with the lessons? Where do you purchase Lial's College Algebra, Basic College Math, etc?

 

Pam

[kiana]

I absolutely agree that she should get "a credit" for her work last year.

 

A thought, however: In some school districts, they still run a two-year version of Algebra 1, with the students getting two credits. The courses are frequently called Algebra 1A and Algebra 1B. Some districts have phased this out or made it only worth one credit.

 

However, since you're the superintendent ... :D

 

In other words, last year could be Algebra 1A and continuing alg this year could be Algebra 1B.

[Leonor]

Jan, there is a very good math tutor in our area that uses and recommends Keys to Algebra. What do you think?

 

I have never personally used her. However, friends that I trust and whose children have had issues like those described above have used her.

[Orthodox6]

If she completed the TT algebra I course, then assign her a credit -- but whatever is the honest grade which goes with her work, even if that is a D or F. If she retakes the course, then you can replace the grade with the higher grade. Colleges let students do this once, generally.

 

Has your dd used Saxon math before? She might not do well with with it, either. Saxon is weak on review. Their "spiral" method means that during a lesson, the student has a tiny amount of something new, then has to wait 24 hours for the next lesson before reinforcing the concept (with a tiny amount of practice). This did not fly at our house, with two of the children.

[Jann in TX]

You have to be careful when you purchase Lials...

 

Lial's College Algebra is NOT Algebra 1 and 2 combined--it is Algebra 3 and the first half of their Pre-Calc text!

 

What Lori was talking about is 'Algebra for College Students'--it is also called Introductory AND Intermediate Algebra (a combo text).

 

Basic Collge Math is my FAVORITE pre-Algebra level text.

 

These are easy to find--amazon.com or half.com has them. There are video lessons (cost around $30) for each Lial text. The student text is all that is needed--videos are optional. For Algebra 2 (Intermediate Algebra) I suggest the solutions manual too.

 

Older editions are just fine... BCM is often used as a workbook--so make sure there is no writing in the text you purchase!

 

I had my dd work BCM and then Lial's Introductory Algebra (algebra 1).

 

I use these same Lial texts in my online math classes--I think it is a great program for most learning types--slow to advanced. What makes these texts different is that ALL of the teaching is in the student text--lots of step-by-step examples with the REASONS listed 'in English' out to the side. These texts were also designed for block scheduling so one lesson should take 2 days to complete.

[Jann in TX]

The Key's To Algebra is a great 'introductory set'--but it is more of a pre-Algebra text--not enough for even half of an Algebra 1 credit. It is a GREAT bridge to use for students who are not quite ready to move into Algebra 1.

[parias1126]

If she completed the TT algebra I course, then assign her a credit -- but whatever is the honest grade which goes with her work, even if that is a D or F. If she retakes the course, then you can replace the grade with the higher grade. Colleges let students do this once, generally.

 

Has your dd used Saxon math before? She might not do well with with it, either. Saxon is weak on review. Their "spiral" method means that during a lesson, the student has a tiny amount of something new, then has to wait 24 hours for the next lesson before reinforcing the concept (with a tiny amount of practice). This did not fly at our house, with two of the children.

 

 

Yes, she has used Saxon Math before (5/4, 6/5, and 7/6) which is why she wants to go back. We always used Saxon in elementary/middle school levels from the time we started homeschooling (4th grade). We have swayed from it, but always ended up going back to it because it worked when something else did not (i.e., Singapore, School of Tomorrow PACES).

 

Pam

[parias1126]

You have to be careful when you purchase Lials...

 

Lial's College Algebra is NOT Algebra 1 and 2 combined--it is Algebra 3 and the first half of their Pre-Calc text!

 

What Lori was talking about is 'Algebra for College Students'--it is also called Introductory AND Intermediate Algebra (a combo text).

 

Basic Collge Math is my FAVORITE pre-Algebra level text.

 

These are easy to find--amazon.com or half.com has them. There are video lessons (cost around $30) for each Lial text. The student text is all that is needed--videos are optional. For Algebra 2 (Intermediate Algebra) I suggest the solutions manual too.

 

Older editions are just fine... BCM is often used as a workbook--so make sure there is no writing in the text you purchase!

 

I had my dd work BCM and then Lial's Introductory Algebra (algebra 1).

 

I use these same Lial texts in my online math classes--I think it is a great program for most learning types--slow to advanced. What makes these texts different is that ALL of the teaching is in the student text--lots of step-by-step examples with the REASONS listed 'in English' out to the side. These texts were also designed for block scheduling so one lesson should take 2 days to complete.

 

Hey Jann!

 

Would you by chance have the ISBN for the Introductory Algebra? Is the actual book I need a paperback and workbook? I was reading reviews on Amazon and it seems as some are receiving the Teacher's edition instead of the student's. I was able to look at a sample of the Basic College Math and the book looks amazing. It is so step-by-step and seems to be exactly what I have been looking for!

 

Also, am I looking for the student's workbook version of this? Is the Teacher's Edition and solution manual two different things? Silly questions, I know! I am just not familiar with this math curriculum and hadn't even heard of it until now. :confused:

 

Thank you for your help! :001_smile:

 

Pam

[Jann in TX]

Lial's Introductory Algebra is a paperback text. I put self-laminating sheets on to reinforce the covers and they hold up just fine. They are HUGE texts--but have a nice font size and layout.

 

The TE is optional--if you really really need more practice problem answers then get it... but it is nice to have if you will be teaching the lessons-so you don't have to 'share'!

 

The student solutions manual is also optional (needed for Intermediate Algebra and above). It has worked out solutions for the odd problems and tests.

 

I'm using the 7th edition with my online classes--but the 8th is virtually the same.

 

ISBN for 8th edition 0321279212

Student solutions: 0321285808

Video lessons (watch on computer) 0321285840--optional but nice 'just in case' (about $30)

 

You can usually find TEs with the ads for the student texts--just read the descriptions carefully.

 

For any of the Lial texts the student's text is all that you really need to start.

 

I have BCM through Pre-Calc (and several editions of each!)

Let me know if you ever have questions.

 

The only chapter I tend to tweak is the one on factoring quadratics/trinomials. I have my own lessons that I prefer--I'll share them if you'd like just e-mail me.

 

Jann snikrepj @ gmail . com