high school- is independent REALLY better

[choirfarm]

People suggested to me and to others that your oldest needs to be independent so that you can really work with your younger ones and I guess I agree to a point. My oldest IS independent: schedules his own work, does his math, grades it himself, meets deadlines, etc. Good grief he even passed me last Friday with laundry and did it so he could get himself packed for camp. (Wow!! this new maturity is great!! He is only 14... ) That said, are sure letting them do independent work without you is REALLY best. For example, yes he could read and do essays but he will get SO much more out of literature and improve his writing SO much more with me working with him. He may pass Chemistry, but how will he truly understand the hows and whys without someone talking and debating with him??? I guess my question is, how do you make sure it is a quality education??? Because I need to do this with all three!!!

 

Christine

[8filltheheart]

I am not in the independent is better group. Learning to defend a position, being challenged to consider different interpretations in a discussion, expanding beyond the limits of a text.....all that is part of teaching.

 

I spend hrs in discussion with my kids. My 9th grader was enrolled in online courses this yr and I am not re-enrolling her b/c I felt the quality was sub-par beyond what I could offer myself. I want my kids mentally challenged. Self-teaching has its limits.

 

ETA: Depending on the age of the younger kids, I think the time is better spent with the older. Pre-k is not necessary. K-2 does not need to take more than 1-2 hrs per day max. My older kids require a lot of my time. (even more than direct teaching b/c I have to dedicate time to reading materials to keep up with teaching them. That is not necessary with younger kids.)

Edited June 17, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[PinkInTheBlue]

From what I remember hearing Susan Wise Bauer say in May at her conference, she doesn't encourage complete independent learning. I could go grab my notebook but I'm being lazy. :) Her explanation was really based on per subject and per student. She says that even her oldest requires her to be "at elbow" on a subject or two but does most of the rest on his own with her following up.

 

I agreed with her and although I'm working towards continued independence of character and study habits, I'm not trying to achieve absolute cut-off. That doesn't even necessarily occur in college.

[Linda in NM]

I'm fortunate in that way because I have only one...I think I let him do too much independently last year, which is why I went back to TOG for history and literature (I need the accountability). I think some things (math, for example, with Videotext) work well independently, and his German online exercises and workbooks, too, but I think I need to work with him with history, literature, marine biology (his choice for science this year), and Latin review...I also need to hear him practice viola at least once a week!

[HiddenJewel]

They do need to know how to work independently and to schedule their time, etc. But there is great value in interaction. They still need to learn things which only someone with more wisdom can teach them. We never really grow out of that even as adults.

[4wildberrys]

I agree with your questioning the 'complete' independence of a high schooler! My dd is also VERY independent---but I found out this year that questioning/discussing/interacting with her is VERY important for her to truly understand concepts and ideas!! There are things I just assumed that she would understand reading her history and lit, and math----but taking the extra time and effort to discuss/correct certain things with her that I had previously just let her correct, I found out that she needs a knowledgeable adult mentor to help her grasp things. I expect her to do her work independently and correct simple things like her vocab,etc---but I have taken over orally discussing her history (instead of her answering the questions on paper and then us forgetting about it :tongue_smilie:) and more importantly correcting and then going over her missed math problems together! She has made incredible strides in her math working WITH me as opposed to working completely independantly. ;) We don't use MFW---but I like their concept of a parent/child 'meeting' one day a week to discuss their work done during the week and corrections/concepts. I also think the one-on-one depends on the student---some kids just need more guidance until they can fly on their own---and some pick up the flying solo with the first push off that 'cliff'.............

[Starr]

I agree that independent doesn't mean turn it all over to the child. For us it means that I don't have to sit next to them every minute. :)

[choirfarm]

All right...sound like most of you agree, but then how in the world do you teacha 9th grade, brilliant boy a 7th grade average boy who needs constant checking and rechecking to stay on task and a 2nd grade girl whose IQ is as high as my oldest, but has vision problems and needs me to work with her on vision therapy and reading which is still torture...She still cries at how much she hates reading... There just isn't enough of me. I can't figure out how to do TOG discussions with literature being on 3 levels this year!!! Writing conferences, science on 3 levels with my middle one stepping up to do REAL textbook science this year which will be challenging... Sigh..

[4wildberrys]

Maybe you could doing a 'mapping' of your time on paper----and figure out the best days to work with your older one. It sounds like your youngest needs the most of you? Are there any subjects you could combine---especially if your youngest is high IQ and could handle higher levels of certain subjects? Have you seen the Workbox system---maybe a modified type of thing could work for your 7th grader who needs extra supervision (I have one!)---some sort of 'checking off' procedure that helps him know his expectations and start learning to take some pressure off of you for checking things that perhaps he could take charge of himself?

[choirfarm]

Here is my schedule..but I am going to have to spend all my evenings studying to keep up.

 

8-8:30- I will be watching Chalkdust Geometry with my 9th grader, 7th grader will be watching and doing Chalkdust Pre-Algebra on his own and 2nd grader will be eating breakfast and doing her morning routine.

8: 30-9 Boys continue with math and I will do Saxon phonics and violin with the 2nd grader

9-9:30 I will work on science with one of the boys. Oldest is doing Chemistry so it may be going over module summary answers or making sure he has what he needs for experiment, etc. My 7th grader will be doing a real textbook with General Science for the first time so I will need to spell out my standards, help him read it, memorize vocab, etc. My 2nd grader has a break.

9:30-10 Boys continue to work on science. I will work on phonics, singapore math and FLL and WWE

10-10:15 Boys take a quick break while I continue working with my daughter.

10:15-12 Boys will work on English and History, though middle one wants to do Spanish in that block. However, Monday will be planning, and Friday I will need to have history and literature discussion with both of them. We will be doing TOG on the rhetoric and dialectic level. They are also both doing IEW intensive C. So I will need to watch the DVD with them so I will understand what they are supposed to do. My daughter will do her vision therapy on the computer as well as handwriting/copywork during this time period. Perhaps finishing math or doing some kind of math drill that doesn't need my help.

12- 12:30 lunch

12:30-1:30 My oldest will practice his piano while middle one does history or Spanish. I will do history or science with my 2nd grader. It will be TOG for history but I'm not sure for science. I guess one of the Apologia Elementary books I have on the shelf.

1:30-2:30 Oldest does Spanish I while middle one practices piano. I continue to do science or history with youngest.. Oh, literature with TOG as well.

2:30-3 Introductory Logic for oldest, Typing Tutor for middle .. I may collapse

At 3 we will do our house cleaning.

[TravelingChris]

I have a very independent 10th grader (very soon to be 11th). I don't discuss English or history per se with her but she discusses them with me at times and shows she knows what she read with her papers and essay tests. She is doing Spanish independently but that is not going well and we will be switching soon. She is doing geometry independently for a few more days (she will be done). She is doing chemistry partly independently and partly with me since she is having a hard time with it. She switched books and is doing very well now but I need to be there to keep her on track. Music is usually done independently. THe geography she is finishing up with me is done with me since we are watching videos for this portion.

 

I am unsure what I am doing next year since I am awaiting the co-op schedule and her deciding what she will do at CC.

[4wildberrys]

Wow---that's a really full schedule with you on call pretty much all day! I got exhausted just reading through it :tongue_smilie:The one thing I can think of is: Can you watch the IEW and CD ahead this summer so you are 'up' on what they are supposed to be doing so you don't have to do it every day? That would spare you some time so you are not having to sit beside them learning daily. I have never used TOG---but have heard it is very teacher intensive, planning intensive etc.---I don't know if that is true for everyone, but have you considered another history like HIstory Odyssey or MFW or SL that won't wear YOU out? Could you just do one rhetoric course and save it for a later year in high school---like MP's rhetoric with the DVDs and a weekly meeting?

 

HTH!

[8filltheheart]

Here is my schedule..but I am going to have to spend all my evenings studying to keep up.

 

8-8:30- I will be watching Chalkdust Geometry with my 9th grader, 7th grader will be watching and doing Chalkdust Pre-Algebra on his own and 2nd grader will be eating breakfast and doing her morning routine.

8: 30-9 Boys continue with math and I will do Saxon phonics and violin with the 2nd grader

9-9:30 I will work on science with one of the boys. Oldest is doing Chemistry so it may be going over module summary answers or making sure he has what he needs for experiment, etc. My 7th grader will be doing a real textbook with General Science for the first time so I will need to spell out my standards, help him read it, memorize vocab, etc. My 2nd grader has a break.

9:30-10 Boys continue to work on science. I will work on phonics, singapore math and FLL and WWE

10-10:15 Boys take a quick break while I continue working with my daughter.

10:15-12 Boys will work on English and History, though middle one wants to do Spanish in that block. However, Monday will be planning, and Friday I will need to have history and literature discussion with both of them. We will be doing TOG on the rhetoric and dialectic level. They are also both doing IEW intensive C. So I will need to watch the DVD with them so I will understand what they are supposed to do. My daughter will do her vision therapy on the computer as well as handwriting/copywork during this time period. Perhaps finishing math or doing some kind of math drill that doesn't need my help.

12- 12:30 lunch

12:30-1:30 My oldest will practice his piano while middle one does history or Spanish. I will do history or science with my 2nd grader. It will be TOG for history but I'm not sure for science. I guess one of the Apologia Elementary books I have on the shelf.

1:30-2:30 Oldest does Spanish I while middle one practices piano. I continue to do science or history with youngest.. Oh, literature with TOG as well.

2:30-3 Introductory Logic for oldest, Typing Tutor for middle .. I may collapse

At 3 we will do our house cleaning.

 

 

This sort of schedule would drive me batty. Even though I work with my older kids (a lot!), I am much happier if my youngest one is finished with school first thing in the morning. My older kids (the ones ages you listed) are perfectly capable of reading lit, history, science, etc independently while I work with younger kids. I expect a certain level of self-direction which is different than self-teaching.

 

My younger kids get highly distracted if they have lots of breaks and resent having to refocus. It is much less painless to simply do it all at once and be finished. That frees me up for teaching, discussion, etc with the older kids (whom I do rotate through).

 

We don't start school until laundry is started, kitchen is clean , and bedrooms are picked up. I expect those to be done immediately in the morning. I fold laundry while calling out dictation to my younger kids, or observing their math, etc.

 

I also have found that listing by times causes me way too much stress. I much prefer the "peg" method. By that I mean a general daily flow of a sort of specific routine but the flow is based on completion of the "peg" vs. the tick of the clock.

 

Oh.....one other thought......I try to alternate between days of lit and history discussions. I don't necessarily discuss both every day with my high schooler (though I tend to read aloud a lot of history to my middle schoolers every day.) Math discussions are daily. Science.....it depends. Sometimes it is every day, sometimes it is every other day.

HTH

[Kathy in MD]

For your youngest, have you asked her VT how much reading he recommends for at this stage? Also, does she need to have her phonics or 3 and four letter words retaught because she can now see them? She may need work in developing her short term visual memory, because until now that was a weak imput. What reading I did require would be very, very short.

 

To be honest, my ds did little reading until his VT and ST was completed. That's when we found out that his visual working memory needed work.

[choirfarm]

Wow---that's a really full schedule with you on call pretty much all day! I got exhausted just reading through it :tongue_smilie:The one thing I can think of is: Can you watch the IEW and CD ahead this summer so you are 'up' on what they are supposed to be doing so you don't have to do it every day? That would spare you some time so you are not having to sit beside them learning daily. I have never used TOG---but have heard it is very teacher intensive, planning intensive etc.---I don't know if that is true for everyone, but have you considered another history like HIstory Odyssey or MFW or SL that won't wear YOU out? Could you just do one rhetoric course and save it for a later year in high school---like MP's rhetoric with the DVDs and a weekly meeting?

 

HTH!

 

WEll, I'll try to watch the IEW CD. But I feel like I ought to watch Geometry, Chemistry and Logic teaching as well, but I guess I will just give it up.. I've already got the TOG books and stuff, so it seems late to switch. Plus, they write the way I understand and love. My teaching fields were history and English. Plus I have their first 9 week notebooks almost made.

 

Christine

[choirfarm]

T

My younger kids get highly distracted if they have lots of breaks and resent having to refocus. It is much less painless to simply do it all at once and be finished. That frees me up for teaching, discussion, etc with the older kids (whom I do rotate through).

 

Well, my girl has trouble doing anything for longer than 20 minutes or so. I generally have to break up a Saxon phonics lesson into 3 or 4 different sections to get it done. Hence, we aren't finished with level one because it takes me nearly 2 days to do most days. Singapore math is easier and can be done at 20 minutes. But she constantly asks me, are we done yet...are we done yet... Now I could sit and read to her for hours. She loves the narration things from WWE and FFL. She also loves the memorization and is extremely good at it. Her handwriting is good, but she complains about copywork. Anyway, 2 hours at one time just doesn't work with her... I would love it, but I can't get her to co-operate.

I also have found that listing by times causes me way too much stress. I much prefer the "peg" method. By that I mean a general daily flow of a sort of specific routine but the flow is based on completion of the "peg" vs. the tick of the clock.

 

Yes, that is the way I do it as well.. The times are approximate and as of right now. I have a checklist and they check it off. I have no idea how long all this will really take..

 

Oh.....one other thought......I try to alternate between days of lit and history discussions. I don't necessarily discuss both every day with my high schooler (though I tend to read aloud a lot of history to my middle schoolers every day.) Math discussions are daily. Science.....it depends. Sometimes it is every day, sometimes it is every other day.

HTH

Yes, I guess I should have made myself clear: I need one day for planning..maybe Sunday night. Then I will have one history discussion time with both boys that will probably last an hour or more. Then I need to have a literature discussion time with each boy once a week... I'm not sure when as that will need to be separate this year and of course I am reading aloud to my youngest.. For science, it is mainly them reading answers aloud and my checking them.. Dh is going to do the labs with them on Thursday afternoon.. We'll see how that works.

 

Christine

[choirfarm]

For your youngest, have you asked her VT how much reading he recommends for at this stage? Also, does she need to have her phonics or 3 and four letter words retaught because she can now see them? She may need work in developing her short term visual memory, because until now that was a weak imput. What reading I did require would be very, very short.

 

To be honest, my ds did little reading until his VT and ST was completed. That's when we found out that his visual working memory needed work.

 

Well, he told me when I started to keep doing phonics, not to stop. 3 letter words are easy for her now. Her main problem is the tracking and comprehension. She will read a sentence flawlessly, but then have no idea what it said!!! Her test scores showed 65 percentile in word recognition but 33 percentile in comprehension with absolutely horrible results in the paragraph comprehension subset. Math was 85 percentile. (I thought it was pretty good, especially with word problems.) The environmental which was history, science, etc. was in the 93rd. Her listening was in the 90's as well. Her Otis Lenon score was 127. I just pull out a book for her to read and she cries and as I said her attention span for anything is about 20 minutes.

 

Christine

[Nan in Mass]

I would lump the brillian 7th grader in with the 9th grader for input and just expect a little less writing out of him. He could have his own math, but I would do everything else with the older one. That way, you would only have two bunches to juggle.

[Lux Et Veritas Academy]

My 9th grader was enrolled in online courses this yr and I am not re-enrolling her b/c I felt the quality was sub-par beyond what I could offer myself. I want my kids mentally challenged. Self-teaching has its limits.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I was checking my daughters online course last night and her work was terrible, I hadn't really followed up too much (my mistake) and now I have big regrets.

[Pamela H in Texas]

This is another area where people tend to be on one end of the spectrum or another. Though there are a few things in life that truly ARE black and white, most things are not. Where *I* tried to live: Between black and white is this sweet spot. You'll see, a bit off to the left (or right), a patch of green.

 

I don't like the spoonfeeding done to the typical high school student. I think it does them a HUGE disservice. However, I think that parents who go all the way the other way also do a disservice to their students. Kids need accountability, discussion, engagement, etc. Of course, maybe not everyone can be on that sweet spot, but if you want ideal, I think you should usually try to find that rather than have kids completely dependent or independent.

 

JMO,

[choirfarm]

I would lump the brillian 7th grader in with the 9th grader for input and just expect a little less writing out of him. He could have his own math, but I would do everything else with the older one. That way, you would only have two bunches to juggle.

 

Nope, that won't work. It is the 9th that is brilliant. He is doing Chemistry as a 9th grader (already done Biology last year and already done Alg. I and II) My 7th grader is just a normal boy, allergic to written work. He LOVES to read, however. He will do Apologia General Science this year which will be a huge step up. I will have to teach him how to read a real textbook, underline, etc so the first few months are liable to be intensive. I would have my older one tutor him, but don't see how he will have time with all of his work as well. The 7th grader isn't ready for the hard literature, either.

 

Christine

[Mama Lynx]

Independent = give them assignments, allow them to schedule and to work on their own, and then discuss, review, etc. If an assignment is done badly, we go over it, together. So my son is doing almost all independent work, but you bet we are discussing all of it, and I always review his work. If he consistently has a problem, then I can pull him over and work with him for awhile - we often need to do this with writing, for example.

 

Also, as others are saying, much of this is going to be student- and course-specific.

[Mama Lynx]

I am not in the independent is better group. Learning to defend a position, being challenged to consider different interpretations in a discussion, expanding beyond the limits of a text.....all that is part of teaching.

 

I spend hrs in discussion with my kids. My 9th grader was enrolled in online courses this yr and I am not re-enrolling her b/c I felt the quality was sub-par beyond what I could offer myself. I want my kids mentally challenged. Self-teaching has its limits.

 

But see ... I send my oldest off with a weekly assignment sheet. He schedules his time, and does the assignments on his own.

 

And then, we do spend hours in discussion. We do go over all work together. We debate positions, etc.

 

But because I give him the assignment sheet, allow him to schedule his time and to complete the assignments independently, I call that "independent." The only place I don't consider him to be "independent" is in writing, and in Spanish (when we do it).

 

ETA: Depending on the age of the younger kids, I think the time is better spent with the older. Pre-k is not necessary. K-2 does not need to take more than 1-2 hrs per day max. My older kids require a lot of my time. (even more than direct teaching b/c I have to dedicate time to reading materials to keep up with teaching them. That is not necessary with younger kids.)

 

Right, but it is essential for me to have the olders off doing independent work while I do spend that hour with my youngers.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Mama Lynx

[SheWhoWaits]

are sure letting them do independent work without you is REALLY best. For example, yes he could read and do essays but he will get SO much more out of literature and improve his writing SO much more with me working with him. He may pass Chemistry, but how will he truly understand the hows and whys without someone talking and debating with him??? I guess my question is, how do you make sure it is a quality education??? Because I need to do this with all three!!!

 

1)Independence is a good thing. Adults need it.

2)You are right that he will learn better with some discussion, needing to take into account other points of view, things he hadn't thought of, etc. One of the things I love about adult Sunday school is how someone else's ideas will trigger one in me that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise, and they wouldn't either--it's a kind of synergy. Together we are better than either of us alone.

 

BUT it doesn't all have to come from you. There are lots of options. Depending on the spread of your kids, some subjects can be multi-age. I have a 15 and 17 yo. I usually teach history and Bible as discussion classes among the 3 of us, and sometimes my husband joins in. We do our discussions on Fridays or Saturdays when he's off.

 

There are lots of online forums, homework help hotlines, etc. that are free. There are also paid classes he can take that have online discussion components.

 

Some areas have good co-op classes.

 

Do you have any homeschooling friends who might do an exchange with you--you add their kid(s) to one of your classes and they add your son to one of theirs?

 

Don't worry about math--that's pretty cut and dried and a great place for him to practice his independence.

 

For some subjects, (a foreign language, science, etc.) there might be local clubs he coud join. We live in a city where there is a stargazing club, a "geek club" (physics), a French club, and several more.

 

If you live near a college or university, you can hire students or even moonlighting professors as tutors. Or maybe if you don't, you could find a student or professor who would be a pen pal to your son?

 

For literature, reading a variety of critics with different points of view on a work of literature and then writing an essay responding to the different points of view can be as good as a live discussion.

 

Sunday school and Bible studies are great places to discuss Bible and theology, if those are part of your curriculum. Is there a BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) near you? Some of them have classes for teens whose moms (or dads) are taking the class.

 

Don't try to prepare lessons with discussion in every subject for every kid. You will burn yourself our within a couple of months. Besides, it's impossible for you to be an expert on every subject. Focus on what you do best and either outsource or allow independence in the other subjects. Your children will have "gaps" in their knowledge. So do public school kids. So do kids from the best private prep schools. In today's world, no one person can know everything. If they learn enough to find their passion and pursue it, or at least choose a good career and pursue it, you've done your job well.

[8filltheheart]

Right, but it is essential for me to have the olders off doing independent work while I do spend that hour with my youngers.

 

I think we are probably talking past each other. I view what you describe as being self-directed. I expect my kids to start taking steps in that direction in 3rd grade. They know their assignments and what needs to be done and that it is expected to be done.

 

I think that is different than when people say their children are learning independently. My take on that is that the students are given books and assignments and go off and teach themselves the material, grade their own work, and are pretty much left to teach themselves.

 

I know many homeschooling families that do precisely that with high school courses, especially math and science.

[Mama Lynx]

I think we are probably talking past each other. I view what you describe as being self-directed. I expect my kids to start taking steps in that direction in 3rd grade. They know their assignments and what needs to be done and that it is expected to be done.

 

I think that is different than when people say their children are learning independently. My take on that is that the students are given books and assignments and go off and teach themselves the material, grade their own work, and are pretty much left to teach themselves.

 

I know many homeschooling families that do precisely that with high school courses, especially math and science.

 

I see.

 

Hmmm. I usually tell people that my oldest works independently. If that's what people think I mean, I'd better learn to say self-directed. :lol:

[Nan in Mass]

Ah, I see. I was reading quicky and got confused by your comma. I put my two, who are 4 years apart, together in almost everything, but I think it would be hard to do if you haven't done it all along. When I am torn between two things, I try to think more 4D. So, since you can't do everything, I would pick one subject for each child that is important and let them do a curriculum in that subject that requires lots of your time and energy. This might be the subject that they are the most talented in (chem for your older one), or you might decide that the one where they are talented and interested is the one they could do best on their own and pick the one that they need the most help in (like vision therapy). Or you might decide to alternate years so everyone gets their turn. I would base my schedule around those subjects, putting them where *I* found it most convenient (not during the afternoon when my brain shuts off LOL or first thing in the morning when I seem only to be able to think about feeding the animals and getting in a load of laundry).

 

I would see if there were any subjects where the children could possibly be lumped together (at least the two older ones), even if one wasn't fully challenged or one was going to produce pretty poor written work because the assignments were at a too high level. Personally, I tend to let the younger one struggle to keep up with the older one because my younger one is capable of learning from high level input even if he can't give me high level output, but if that isn't the case, you may need to let the older one be a bit bored. Maybe that could be the subject your older one isn't interested in and just wants to check off his list. Or maybe there is a subject where it would be easy to give the older some extra independent work to suppliment it (people do this with SOTW).

 

I would pick a subject for each child to do completely independently, preferably something time consuming, like something that included lots of reading. Maybe it would be something that had a great independent curriculum or something that the child was good enough at not to need much help with or something that was low priority this year. Then I would see which parts of other curriculums could be done independently (like the writing assignments or math problems). I would put all those on a list for each child and have the child do the list while I was busy working one-on-one with the others.

 

So now you have three sections of your day:

 

A section where you work one-on-one with each child on their big subject (other children do their independent subjects and their work list)

A section where you work one-on-one with each child to correct his work and get each child started with his new work (make his work list) (other children do their independent subjects and work list)

A section where you work with them all together

 

Even just juggling two I've had to do this. The trick is to pick some subjects to do well each year for each child, just do the best you can with the rest, and the next year, reprioritize. GRIN You can do it all, you just can't do it all all the time for everyone.

 

Not that this isn't what other people have been saying...

-Nan

[8filltheheart]

Choirfarm,

 

One other suggestion might be to not use Apologia with your 7th grader this yr and go with something like Plato science. My 7th grader really enjoyed using the courses this yr and I was more than satisfied with the content of what he learned. It might take some of the stress out of your days b/c it does the experiments online and provides the tests.

 

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