gandpsmommy Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 nt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 From my new writing book... In ancient and medieval rhetoric, a certain set of exercises (beginning with such simple exercises as retelling a narrative in your own words, working up to more complex assignments such as proving an argument by supplying examples and analogies, or disproving an argument through reasoning) became standard among teachers of rhetoric. These exercises, known broadly as the progymnasmata (“preliminary exercises,†because they preceded the mature exercise of rhetoric), were generally undertaken by older students, and in most cases young writers need a certain amount of time and maturity before they can benefit from the progymnasmata exercises. Progymnasmata exercises give students the skills necessary to express their own ideas with grace and fluency. Having said that... Classical Writing starts the progym with much younger students and many HSers use that program w/success, so far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 The progymnasmata are a series of composition exercises designed to lead up to the study of formal rhetoric. This page has a good overview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I like this web site: Silva Rhetoricae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 From my new writing book...In ancient and medieval rhetoric, a certain set of exercises (beginning with such simple exercises as retelling a narrative in your own words, working up to more complex assignments such as proving an argument by supplying examples and analogies, or disproving an argument through reasoning) became standard among teachers of rhetoric. These exercises, known broadly as the progymnasmata (“preliminary exercises,†because they preceded the mature exercise of rhetoric), were generally undertaken by older students, and in most cases young writers need a certain amount of time and maturity before they can benefit from the progymnasmata exercises. Progymnasmata exercises give students the skills necessary to express their own ideas with grace and fluency. Why is this in your new book? Will you be covering it? If so, which level? Thank you, Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi, Karen! Although my new book is focused on elementary writing, I have an extensive essay at the beginning that lays out a plan for all twelve years. In that, I discuss the place of the progym exercises. I begin them in the second half of the logic stage. Although (as CW demonstrates) you can certainly begin them earlier, I personally think that they're more appropriate for older writers (around 6th grade and up). If your student is not struggling with writing, the CW approach (where you begin progym exercises in the grammar stage) can be very productive. My experience, though, is that many students are still struggling with the PROCESS and mechanics of writing in grades 1-4. The Complete Writer: Writing With Ease is designed to lay a good strong foundation of basic writing skills, so that students are no longer having difficulty with the ACT of writing by the time they move into the logic stage. At that point, they can begin to concentrate a little more on content. This is basically the approach I lay out in my writing CD (we have it at Peace Hill Press, and should have it available for download fairly soon), and I'll get more information up on the PHP website soon, including excerpts from the upcoming book. HTH. SWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I clicked on a mysterious box by accident and it closed. Hey, this software's new to me, too. :o SWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraL in OK Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Here's what I wanted to add: my favorite progym one-page overview site, and a Web page that has a great list of progym resources. Preliminary Exercises (Progymnasmata) from the Univ. of Leeds, UK The Progymnasmata - resources for classical writing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbaraL in OK Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Oh, that's funny! Sorry, Susan, to chuckle, but I so could have done that. Er, if I had seen that button :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMCassandra Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Susan, would it be possible to publish the extensive essay at the beginning of Book 1 as a booklet, ebook, or something? My children, for example, will be past Book 1 when the series comes out, but I'd sure like to buy the overview. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 and I'll keep you posted. Good idea. SWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 And of course, you can easily wait to start Classical Writing until 4th or 5th grade. I am a big fan of CW, but I do wish I had had more hand-holding for teaching my boys the process and and mechanics of writing early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 And of course, you can easily wait to start Classical Writing until 4th or 5th grade. I am a big fan of CW, but I do wish I had had more hand-holding for teaching my boys the process and and mechanics of writing early on. Agreed. I started it in 3rd but we are also doing a lot of other things and are taking our time. Also technically Aesop A has 18 weeks of material, and Aesop B another 18. Homer is for 5th grade on up per the CW website, so if you start in 3rd you are going to need to supplement (which we are). Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thanks for the descriptions, Susan; that's extremely helpful. My daughter is doing very well with CW and has no trouble with the mechanics/process end of writing, so we'll stick with that, but my friend is looking for a writing program just like this for her little guy, so I sent her the info and she will be using it instead. What a timely thread this was for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanie Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Ok, I'm feeling stupid that I don't know about progym., but I have some questions. How does this work for a kid who is LD and has very poor reasoning skills? I would love for my ds12 to be able to do this, but he has very poor comprehension/reasoning skills. Is WT comparable to the CW series? I do WT with my younger dc, but I didn't know if it's the same as CW in terms of progym? If it can work for my ds12 then which level should I start with? We do R&S for grammar,but he is reluctant writer. We take writing step-by-step,and I have to do everything with him or else he's lost. So I'm hoping I'm making sense!:confused: Thanks so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Ok, I'm feeling stupid that I don't know about progym., but I have some questions. How does this work for a kid who is LD and has very poor reasoning skills? I would love for my ds12 to be able to do this, but he has very poor comprehension/reasoning skills. Is WT comparable to the CW series? I do WT with my younger dc, but I didn't know if it's the same as CW in terms of progym?If it can work for my ds12 then which level should I start with? We do R&S for grammar,but he is reluctant writer. We take writing step-by-step,and I have to do everything with him or else he's lost. So I'm hoping I'm making sense!:confused: Thanks so much! Yes WT follows the same basic ideas. The choose different models, and go at different paces, from what I understand, but are based on the same thing. I am also told that WT is more user friendly...pick up and go, where CW expects you to read the core book and get what is going on. There is an Aesop for older beginners you can start with. Or you can ask on the CW forums: http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanie Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Yes WT follows the same basic ideas. The choose different models, and go at different paces, from what I understand, but are based on the same thing. I am also told that WT is more user friendly...pick up and go, where CW expects you to read the core book and get what is going on. There is an Aesop for older beginners you can start with. Or you can ask on the CW forums: http://lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi Heather Thanks so much! I do love WT and so do my dc. I think I may stick with it for now b/c it's working for us. However, I'm very excited to see Susan's new writing program! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie in VA Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Susan, I too would love to read that overview of your new writing program. I have one ds in FLL, one who finnished FLL and is now in CW Aesop B and a dd in CW Homer A. I really like the idea of following the progym for writing. I've been debating on taking my youngest son into FLL 3-4 or starting him on CW next year. He doesn't like the physical act of writing and he isn't quite there on typing yet, but he can retell a story without difficulty. One of the things I like about CW is that it incorporates grammar in the lower levels, rhetoric & logic in the upper levels. Will your writing program also incorporate logic and rhetoric? That is, will it give the student a chance to apply what they have learned in their logic and rhetoric studies? I really believe in teaching English grammar, logic and rhetoric as skills but would love the chance to really apply those skills and pull them all together. I'm thinking a writing program would be a great place to do this. What do you think? Thanks in Advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogpond1 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 on the Progymn. but if I had it to do all over again, I would have studied it for myself when my children were younger than 3rd grade. Now, every year the lower levels get easier and easier to teach because they are natural to me. I'm really enjoying this book: Composition in the Classical Tradition by Frank J. D'Angelo and I didn't buy it for years because of the price, but it has really brought it alive for me. I am using it to really learn the Progymn myself, but I'm doing activities straight from it with my 6th-8th graders too and having a blast. Your children are young and copywork, dictation and narration are essential before third grade. We still do a ton of narrations in all subject areas after third grade. Using CW taught me not to be afraid to teach writing to my children and the new workbooks are very helpful. Either try studying it yourself now, or look into CW for your kids when they are around age 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readwithem Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 That's funny :) Glad to see your e-face here, SWB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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