High School Credits - Sonlight vs. TOG

[BlsdMama]

I need some "been there, done that" mamas to help me out. Next year is going to be a challenge for me, a LOT of fun, but a challenge! Ana should be 8th grade, but if we're doing Sonlight it will be Sonlight 100 and with her taking Algebra, Latin Road, etc., we're going to start counting high school credits. This way she can fit in more specialized study or college courses in her "senior" year. Our unique situation... This fall/winter we'll have: (1) 8th/9th grader (1) 5th grader - these two are at VERY different levels (1) 2nd grader (1) K/1st (1) PreK/K (1) PreK - 3 year old (1) 15 month old (1) newborn I seriously thought about doing three Cores, but I've tried that before and it's unpleasant. I can't combine the 5th grader and the 2nd grader without serious tweaking. I can teach the 2nd grader and just let all my little ones listen in, have fun, and be with Mom. We're really quite relaxed 'til about age 8 or so. The 5th grader absolutely CAN'T be combined with the 8th grader. She is very advanced, he is math advanced, and when it comes to literature just average. :) So, I decided Tapestry of Grace would be perfect. The last time I tried to do three cores I got very overwhelmed with ALL the reading aloud. It was just too much trying to juggle everyone with me directing it all. I'm leaning towards Tapestry just because there is one set of read alouds and then everyone goes on their merry way. So, to save $$, I'm tempted to just use Tapestry for ALL of them, Ana included. But, for me, the big selling point of Sonlight is the manual of having everything printed, bound, and right there for Ana to do. She's a very self motivated child and she LOVED the time we did with Sonlight because of the detailed To Do lists, made out by day. She's a list maker and a crosser-offer. So, Sonlight would make high school VERY easy for me. I just have to teach, no planning. Plus, it would be so easy to figure out credits because I could just look through the manual and say, "Okay, we covered X, Y, and Z." That said, Tapestry looks like more of a challenge. That's attractive. Plus, it's all the ages on one cd, so I'd have it anyway if I bought it for the youngers. But I'm afraid it's going to take a lot more planning on my part. I truly thought about just piecing together my own curriculum again this year. This is what we had done for years as we've homeschooled for eight years now, much of it by piecing together everything from TWTM. But I really NEED to admit my weaknesses. And that weakness is that the lesson plans and the organization is just not getting done at this point. And I'm sick of not having a plan laid out, printed out. I have these great kids that will wake up in the AM and do everything they're asked or given a list for, BUT if I don't have a list, then we end up being a bit aimless. The other thing I don't want is a hands off approach! I do not want them to just "come to me with problems." Reading aloud is one of my very favorite things to do with them. But I absolutely CAN'T read aloud 3 hours per day and then do phonics with my 8yo and 5.5yo, which requires another hour of one on one time, not to mention any teaching time of math, grammar, etc., with the olders. The newborn won't be the problem, but the soon to be 3yo and 5yo certainly can find their share of naughtiness. :P I know this is incredibly long. And if you've gotten this far, God bless you. I'm just really curious, for keeping track of high school credits, ease of implementation, and challenge, would you use Tapestry of Grace (if you were buying the Loom and CD anyway for youngers) for the older, or would you go with Sonlight? I figure the cost has got to end up about the same as Sonlight's Core 100 is actually pretty inexpensive for their programs. What do you think?

[momee]

Hi Kelly,

I feel your pain. I go back and forth after every TOG unit. We've tried switching to SL Core 2, Core 5 and Core 200 for my guys (2nd, 5th and 9th). I hate to say it, but after years with TOG it just felt like SL just wasn't asking enough of them. Not the reading, they read plenty but there wasn't a whole lot of work... It's a read to learn program in my opinion but my kids needed to do some reading and some thinking and some writing to learn.

 

As far as mom issues - I'm sure others may disagree but I have found, for me TOG works because I am forced to be familiar with the subject through the teacher's notes and preparing for a discussion then having that discussion. With SL I just asked the discussion ?s and listened to their answers. If the guide matched, ok. We're done. I was better prepared to actually TEACH with TOG. BUT that led to the work below, I had to TEACH.

 

TOG is MORE work for you as teacher, I think. I also have a little one and switched to SL for ease on me. I was tired of finding and paying for books, tired of making a schedule (which I don't think I'm going to do this year, they are!!!!!!) Tired of reading and learning before them. I also left because TOG is hard for the kids. It's a rigorous program. I was also tired of the complaining by my oldest. Now I realize he's going to complain no matter what! He's 15!!!

 

All that said, I don't feel I'm lacking tools to teach them with TOG and this is critical in high school. I have all I need to teach history, literature, philosophy, geography, bible, writing, and worldview. I have to learn to pick and choose but that's my problem, not TOG's.

 

TOG is probably more expensive than SL. You have to be in TOG for the long haul if you're worried about spending. You need to buy the year plan and the diff levels of books. That gets expensive if you don't have a library. BUT, when you go back through the program with the next kids, then it is free :) but that's in four years and my budget doesn't incude four years into the future, we're paycheck to paycheck!

 

The awesome thing is the great volume of books, but it's an awful thing if you're the one paying $8.95 for each and every one! :)

 

I'll be happy to answer some specific ?s if you'd like. I've ridden the merry go round for years. Easier on me - SL. Better in the long run for my kids work ethic and academically - TOG. Just my two cents, I'm SURE others will have other opinions. There's been so much written on TOG, do a search and waste a week reading then you'll be more confused.:tongue_smilie:

 

Just stop now and pray!!! Then go in peace with the decision, and don't look back till next year.

Best advice I've got. Now to follow it myself.

Edited June 3, 2009 by momee

[momee]

"But I really NEED to admit my weaknesses. And that weakness is that the lesson plans and the organization is just not getting done at this point. And I'm sick of not having a plan laid out, printed out. "

 

 

In light of this statement I'd highly encourage you to be sure you have the stuff copied in advance and all the books on hand, in case you fall into weakness if TOG is your choice. A good thing is there's not a ton of planning if you have the kids self planning each week. BUT, you have to give them time to learn this skill and consistently teach it to them.

 

If not, this will be a problem for you with TOG, whereas it will not be with SL.

 

With SL you don't have to look ahead and order any books. With TOG it's crucial. That alone is enough to drive some moms away from TOG.

 

No matter how great a program looks or is, if it doesn't fit your "style" it won't work.

[FloridaLisa]

I'm going to dive in here. You will ultimately have to make the decision, but outside guidance is always helpful when I'm in a quandry. :001_smile:

 

Next year is going to be a challenge for me, a LOT of fun, but a challenge! Ana should be 8th grade, but if we're doing Sonlight it will be Sonlight 100 and with her taking Algebra, Latin Road, etc., we're going to start counting high school credits. This way she can fit in more specialized study or college courses in her "senior" year.

 

In most states, and for many colleges, it's perfectly fine to get high school credit while in 8th grade. So, you are on the right path to keep her challenged so that she can dual enroll or take APs or CLEP out or specialize even further in the late high school years.

 

 

So, I decided Tapestry of Grace would be perfect. The last time I tried to do three cores I got very overwhelmed with ALL the reading aloud. It was just too much trying to juggle everyone with me directing it all. I'm leaning towards Tapestry just because there is one set of read alouds and then everyone goes on their merry way. So, to save $$, I'm tempted to just use Tapestry for ALL of them, Ana included. But, for me, the big selling point of Sonlight is the manual of having everything printed, bound, and right there for Ana to do. She's a very self motivated child and she LOVED the time we did with Sonlight because of the detailed To Do lists, made out by day. She's a list maker and a crosser-offer.

 

If you're sold on TOG, then I'd make the lesson plans this summer, especially for your 8th and 5th graders. If you like the ease of "do the next thing" lesson plans -- and it looks as though it will be critical with all of your littles next year -- then make the lesson plans for TOG this summer. That way, if you have an off day, or the littles need extra attention, your 8th and 5th graders can continue without having to wait on mama. And it's not a weakness. It's that your plate is piled high with needy folks, a house to manage and littles to love on.

 

The other thing I don't want is a hands off approach! I do not want them to just "come to me with problems." Reading aloud is one of my very favorite things to do with them. But I absolutely CAN'T read aloud 3 hours per day and then do phonics with my 8yo and 5.5yo, which requires another hour of one on one time, not to mention any teaching time of math, grammar, etc., with the olders.

 

Ah . . reality meets idealism. We only have so much time and energy, and I learned long ago to allocate my time where it was needed most (math, Latin, grammar, writing and teaching the youngers phonics, spelling, handwriting, read alouds in evening). While you don't have to be completely hands-off, you need to allow yourself margin next year with 5 kids under 6. :001_smile: In years past, when I haven't done that, some subjects were caught in the paralysis between my ideal and the practical, and little was actually accomplished. So for instance, I traded Classical Writing (still on my shelf) for IEW with videos. It worked, my kids wrote and wrote and improved their writing.

 

Since your dd is a self-starter and diligent student, capitalize on that! Streamline in certain subjects with her so that your teaching time is freed up to use where most needed. One thing I noticed in the high school years was that my teaching time decreased but my planning and correcting time increased! Allowing more independence from my kids each year has been good and, practically, allows me to continue educating at home as I've folded in new littles over the years.

 

Forgive me for not precisely answering your question on TOG vs. Sonlight. I empathized with the tension I read in your post about the vision for your home education and the practical needs and pull of your life. I do think TOG would work, *if* you are able to plan the lessons this summer and *if* you don't feel compelled to do it all, at every level. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hope something here helps!

Lisa

Edited June 3, 2009 by FloridaLisa

[Karenciavo]

TOG has the credits all figured out for you (Year 4 not done yet.) I make workbooks for my children ahead of time, some people have their children work from one book, some with the digital edition of TOG have their children work from the computer. One of the tools TOG encourages you to give your children is the ability to schedule their own week, my children start doing this around 5th grade. I can't remember Years 1 & 2, but Year 3 has a read aloud scheduled most weeks. You could also pick a spine from the Alternate Resources page and read that aloud if you like. I'm confused about why you think you'd have to read aloud for three hours a day.

[April in CA]

Hello!

I am a very happy TOG user, and the redesigned makes life much easier on busy moms like you who have a houseful of children. If you are looking at the DE version of TOG, you can print off copies of the Student Activity Pages (SAPs) and maps (if you get MapAids) and reading assignments and writing assignment pages etc for each student and put them is separate notebooks for each child. I put a colored piece of paper between each week if I don't have tab sets - it works just as well. I would suggest doing this by unit (quarter of the year) rather than doing it every week - that way it is done for the unit. Books can also be ordered by unit from Bookshelf Central, the affiliate online bookstore. Their prices are quite competitive on most books, and the people that own and run it are homeschoolers deeply involved with the TOG redesign curriculum. I would strongly encourage you to buy from them if you can (I am just a happy customer - not part of the family!) Depending on the year you are looking at using, you may be able to find lots of books at the library, especially for the younger kids. It is harder to substitute the R level books, especially literature.

 

You would need to read the teacher's notes each week (I would recommend reading the whole quarter quickly at the beginning, and then rereading each week's notes as you need them, just to get the flow of the material) and prepare and lead discussions. With younger students, your discussions can be quite informal. Even with your older students you may decide to pick and choose how much to discuss. You will find that not all the discussions will exactly follow the order of the questions the students were assigned to answer. That is on purpose - the goal is to lead your student to make connections and think about the big ideas of history, not just recite facts they have learned in their books. Sometimes you might need to help them make those connections, but the discussion outline will help you do that.

 

I loved Sonlight when my guys were in elementary school, and I know people who have used it quite successfully in high school as well, so I am sure your students would thrive with it if you choose to go that parth, but I would vote for TOG, if you are willing to put in the effort to make it work for you.

 

Hope this helps!

Blessings,

April

[Denise in PA]

Hello!

 

The previous threads have woven a powerful testimony about TOG. In all the years I have been teaching my children I find TOG extremely flexible and fun. When my teens began seventh and ninth grades I switched to TOG becuase of one major reason - to prepare them to think. Planning has never been an issue for me because my children learned early on to write down their own reading assignments each week in their planner. They own their schedule and prefer me not to meddle with, "Have you read this... and finished this...". Regardless if you teach from TOG or Sonlight you are on the right path - unit study approach. Teaching many children at home lends itself nicely to studying the same time period. For years my two older children read different level literature books and answered appropriate-aged questions, but we always came together for discussion time. The younger one chimed in during the same discussion session as her older brother, gleaned from the material on her level. My older teen and I were often amazed at the younger child's keen insight. TOG shines brilliantly in the discussion forum, often lacking in home schools. No matter what the age I would encourage everyone coming together once a week to discuss literature and history - a valuable tool which involves preparing for such a forum, listening attentively, orally answering questions, and chiming in. With three years of TOG behind us my children (now teens) have learned how to schedule ALL their studies, to research answers to TOG Thinking Questions, to prepare and participate for the once-a-week discussion with mom. Monday mornings we briefly schedule all subjects, reading lists, jobs, music lessons, etc. Then I rarely hear from them concerning history, geography, and literature all week until discussion time on Friday. During the week there is plenty of time to assist in math, grammar, writing, and science subjects. TOG truly encourages children to self-study during the week, to analyze the material, and to formulate their thoughts. The key is to plan a once-a-week discussion. Your younger children will enjoy special time reading to you and listening to you read. I actually miss that special time since my children are now in high school (rhetoric stage). Yet, throughout the years their study habits/skills have broadened and matured. I now have more time to read the weekly "Teacher Notes" and am receiving a wonderful education myself!

 

I have never used Sonlight, but have heard wonderful accolades. Several of my home school friends have switched from Sonlight to TOG this past year because they believed TOG provided the study and rhetoric skills.

 

Very little planning for TOG is needed on my part because all the student questions, reading lists (which you can tweak), teacher notes, and discussion questions are laid out for me - simple! TOG even has a CD-Rom for applicable maps and one for tests.

 

As for teaching an entire family with TOG or Sonlight I know of several families with younger and older children that successfully teach with TOG. One incredible mom I admire believes TOG has saved her home schooling sanity for the very reasons I mentioned above. Her older ones are quite self-sufficient in their daily studies freeing her up to assist the younger ones.

 

There is no perfect curriculum. My prayer for you is that God will clearly open the door for you and your family to enjoy learning HIS magnificent story!

 

Denise

[siloam]

Kelly,

 

It is hard to say. You are one of those people who will either find TOG what they have been looking for all these years or it will be a total bomb.

 

TOG is a weekly schedule, not daily. It does have pages to print off for your oldest to work from, with LOTS of stuff to cross off. There is also a focus on training the child to manage their own time and schedule, so ideally you would hand your 8th grader her SAP's (Student Activity Pages) and she would go off and schedule her time, then you both would come together for discussion times during the week. Obviously there is going to be a transition time where you both learn this new approach, or find some middle of the road way that it works for you.

 

BTW there are TONS of little check boxes on the SAP pages. Love those check boxes. :D

 

For the younger kids there are also SAP pages, but your 2nd grader probably isn't going to work independently. Your 5th grader might if they are inclined.

 

Something to think about. TOG is designed for the student to do most the reading independently (UG and up), more like SL does for Cores 100 and up. Now I don't use TOG that way. I RA a LG or UG history book to all my kids, then just assign some of the in-depth reading to my oldest, but my kids are a lot closer in age than yours are. I am not sure that approach would work as well for you. I do like the LG selections as they are usually picture books, very K-2nd friendly. If your oldest two could work independently I think you would find the LG schedule nice and light for your 2nd grader, so you are freed up to focus on the basics for your little ones.

 

TOG redesign does have some RA's, but not exactly like SL, not in a regularly scheduled fashion. Obviously you can add SL RA's as you please. That would give you the freedom to use books at all different levels. If you want to know more about the RA's in one particular level you might want to start a new thread on that.

 

The planning that I think you would need to do to do TOG:

-Choose and organize books. I recommend you focus on multi-unit books as it cuts the cost and the amount of organization/choosing needed.

-Print out SAP sheets, overview pages, maps and timeline figures.

-Read Teacher Notes

-If preferred break reading down into daily reading portions.

 

Heather

 

[M&M]

It sounds like Ana will be a perfect student for TOG, she will learn to take the next step and plan out her own week and then cross things off as she does them. I give my 7th and 4th grader planners and a copy of the weekly assignment chart, give them thier books and they plan out thier week. My time is spent choosing the most important threads to cover and preparing for the socratic discussion.

 

I think TOG might be a great choice for your family, as long as you don't try to do it all and give yourself time to patiently find a rhythm for your family.

[PollyOR]

I am new to TOG and I want to thank :) everyone who has replied. This has been helpful to me to see how it is working for different families.

[BlsdMama]

I am so grateful to everyone who replied. I was very seriously leaning towards TOG for Ana (the oldest) but what kept holding me back is knowing I'd have to break down every week and do all the planning. Why in the world it never occurred to me that she could do this I don't know. It's actually a perfect fit with her personality! She'd love being the master of her week and moreover she is a more stringent taskmaster than I am, so she'll take on more than I probably would have given her. How very exciting that it is so self directed in the older years... For me that would incorporate so much of her training to be self disciplined. And thank you to the Mama who posted the "High School Credits" link. That was very beneficial and provided a lot of relief. :) I think we're going to start with Tapestry's Year 2 this year and just purchase one unit and see how we can work this out. I think I'll purchase it this summer and work out the lesson plans for the 5th and 2nd graders and let Ana learn how to schedule her activities as well.

[April in CA]

Hello Kelly!

I think you have made a great choice! Please be aware that year 2 is PACKED and moves at a very fast pace. If your daughter is going into 8th grade (and thus would have 5 years to cover all 4 years of TOG) you might want to consider doing units 1, 2, and 3 of year 2 next year. If she is going to be in 9th grade, you should cover the whole year, but don't expect her to do all the R level literature. Remember that most young children (and big ones, too) really like castles and knights and things - these are covered in the first two units of year 2, so plan ahead to do some projects with your little ones. Perhaps your older daughter could help her siblings.

 

I think it would be a great idea to order unit 1 soon to start getting ready. You and your kiddos should do a review of the end of the Roman Empire (in the west) to prepare, if you have not studied the ancients recently. Also, be sure to look for some of the D level books free on-line so you can get a feel for the text before you purchase a print copy. Books like Our Island Story and This Country of Ours can be found at The Baldwin Project - I think the website is mainlesson.com - I lost my bookmarks, so I am just going from memory here.

 

If you have any more questions, ask away! You can also ask questions on the Tapestry of Grace forum.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,

April

[BlsdMama]

Strangely, I believe we already own both of those. I think I'm going to find we own a few of the books from utilizing a little of the books recommended on Ambleside and Sonlight, I've noticed we've got a few. The big debate now is Year 2 or Year 3 and I think I'm going to mosey over to the TOG forums to figure it out.... (But, I admit to pouting over the idea of doing the Ancients. I've NEVER liked the ancients. Ever. Drat.)

Edited June 11, 2009 by BlsdMama

[April in CA]

Hi again, Kelly!

If your kiddlets haven't studied the ancients, you might want to start with yr 1. The ancients with TOG is really interesting. You might find yourself surprised at how much you enjoy them! Of course, year 3 is awesome as well. It starts at the beginning of the 19th c and assumes your students have covered the colonial period and Revolution recently. Good luck choosing!

Blessings,

April (looking forward to seeing you on the TOG forums, too!)

[JadeOrchidSong]

Kelly,

 

It is hard to say. You are one of those people who will either find TOG what they have been looking for all these years or it will be a total bomb.

 

TOG is a weekly schedule, not daily. It does have pages to print off for your oldest to work from, with LOTS of stuff to cross off. There is also a focus on training the child to manage their own time and schedule, so ideally you would hand your 8th grader her SAP's (Student Activity Pages) and she would go off and schedule her time, then you both would come together for discussion times during the week. Obviously there is going to be a transition time where you both learn this new approach, or find some middle of the road way that it works for you.

 

 

BTW there are TONS of little check boxes on the SAP pages. Love those check boxes. :D

 

For the younger kids there are also SAP pages, but your 2nd grader probably isn't going to work independently. Your 5th grader might if they are inclined.

 

Something to think about. TOG is designed for the student to do most the reading independently (UG and up), more like SL does for Cores 100 and up. Now I don't use TOG that way. I RA a LG or UG history book to all my kids, then just assign some of the in-depth reading to my oldest, but my kids are a lot closer in age than yours are. I am not sure that approach would work as well for you. I do like the LG selections as they are usually picture books, very K-2nd friendly. If your oldest two could work independently I think you would find the LG schedule nice and light for your 2nd grader, so you are freed up to focus on the basics for your little ones.

 

TOG redesign does have some RA's, but not exactly like SL, not in a regularly scheduled fashion. Obviously you can add SL RA's as you please. That would give you the freedom to use books at all different levels. If you want to know more about the RA's in one particular level you might want to start a new thread on that.

 

The planning that I think you would need to do to do TOG:

-Choose and organize books. I recommend you focus on multi-unit books as it cuts the cost and the amount of organization/choosing needed.

-Print out SAP sheets, overview pages, maps and timeline figures.

-Read Teacher Notes

-If preferred break reading down into daily reading portions.

 

Heather

 

Heather,

It is so nice to see your detailed description of TOG. I am really debating what to use in the middle and high school once we run one round of SOTW. TOG still seems intimidating to me and MFW seems to be pretty good for high school. I am so torn. I hope I will become one of the "love TOG" people.