Academically Challenging School?

[CO MOM]

Our dd is finishing her junior year and narrowing down her college list. She is a good student - will be National Merit commended (probably not finalist), but not interested in any of the large more exclusive schools. We are primarily looking at small Christian liberal arts schools.

 

I am wondering how you define or identify an academically challenging school. I know there are the obvious Ivy League-type, highly selective schools, but beyond that what things do you look for? From what I can tell, you can look at selectivity and average test score ranges for the students - are there other things to look for?

 

Her current top choice is not particularly challenging academically I don't think, but I don't know - and does it really matter? Do a few points lower on the test score ranges make that much difference? At this point, she is not wanting to be in a really competitive environment, but yet she would like it to be stimulating where most of the students are really engaged in their classes and interested in their studies.

 

Part of me thinks we shouldn't worry - that most places would be fine. It is what you make of it, and for us, the people and spiritual aspects are more important anyway. But then the other side of me thinks maybe she should aim a little higher......??

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Jane

[Nan in Mass]

There was a college in the town where I went to high school. It looks good on paper, and we know people who have been happy there, but for the most part, it is just a waiting place. I think our big state university, with all its problems, would be better. At least some of the student population is interested in what they are studying. I have no idea how you tell whether the student body is apathetic. I worried about it a lot, until my sons sort of circumvented the question by picking a college that would supply more of a vocational education than an intellectual one.

-Nan

[Gwen in VA]

Visit schools. I know ti takes time and it's generally a pain, but it's essential.

 

My kids both eliminated not only specific schools but also specific KINDS of schools by visiting.

 

Also, spend time on the college websites. They are designed to try to give potential applicants an idea of what the school is like. We have been pleasantly surprised at how closely our impression from visits correlates with the impression we had from the websites.

[Kareni]

There is actually an upside to applying at a college for which she is highly qualified -- she may be amongst their top candidates and thus be eligible for a better than average financial aid package.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[creekland]

I'm in the same boat, except with a junior son instead of daughter. We've been eliminating some schools that aren't considered academically challenging - maybe it's mainly me - but I want him in with his peers or slightly on the high side of his peers.

 

On top of that, my son wants to major in Economic/Community/Global Development (name changes based on where it's offered - essentially Sustainable Economics). Very few schools offer that major, then I want to add academically challenging...

 

So far, our short list is Covenant College (GA), Grove City College (PA) - though they are just starting the program - and Wheaton (IL). We've eliminated a few others... and I'm only looking east of the Mississippi, so perhaps there would be others in the Western US.

 

To figure out academically challenging, I'm looking on College Board at their actual admission scores, in US News and World Report at Top Tier colleges - and then top of the top - and with Forbes list of Best Buys... as well as what we hear people say, google searches, and visiting. We also like to hear what graduates have gone on to do.

 

Visiting has helped tremendously with eliminating those which my son doesn't like. When we visited my Alma mater (a well respected public university) he knew he didn't want to go there (sigh). However, I want the best fit for him, so I'm learning a lot more about a lot of schools!

[JFSinIL]

You can also look at the Honors programs at some of the bigger schools. My ds's "safety" schools have such programs, and that is where he'd go if he ends up at 'State U' instead of 'U of State' or a private school.

[CO MOM]

Thanks for all your replies - I had a longer response that addressed topics more specifically, but it got lost when I attempted to post it! Oh, well - don't have time to recreate it, but the gist was that I appreciate the comments and we will continue to research and visit as able.

 

Thanks again!

[Tea Time]

It helps to have actual curriculum the student will study (the books and texts used if possible).

 

For example, classes in one school for an English major will be all classics, whereas the same major at another school will include these classes on the transcript: The Lyrics of Bob Dylan and The History of American Comic Books.

 

Those are real classes an acquaintance of ours, a young woman, is really excited about taking, although they are not allowed until the students senior year.

 

I'm just sayin'!

[Sharon in MD]

Hi Jane,

 

We are at the point now where ds has made his decision and the papers are signed and so on. Let me give you a little background on where our son is academically....Although I consider our son to be a really bright kid and he got a great scholarship to his top choice school, where he'll be going next fall, we aren't among the tier of students who are at the tippy top-tier, merit kids. DS did well on his tests, but not at the commended level.

 

But, we were looking for a strong academic school for him and one with really great research ops for undergrads from the freshman level onward. We found the most important tools to be the internet first and then a real visit. We found those visits to be really eye-opening. I think you can tell a lot about a school by talking at length with the professors and the students. For us, with engineering being the field of interest, we could tell quite a bit about the schools based on the amount of students involved in various engineering clubs and competitions and in the labs. How interested are the students in getting involved? It wasn't that hard to tell which schools gave a darn about the students and vice-versa.

 

I think the other side of the coin is that most of the academic challenge and therefore excellence depends upon what the student makes of their experience. Almost every professor we spoke with made the point that students who are interested will gain the attention of their professors and will get the research opportunities and study helps and so on.

 

I would also second the response that you might want to look at schools where your dc's scores would put them at the top of those admitted. It can help with scholarships. If you only apply to schools where your student is in the middle 50%, you are not likely to get many offers of scholarship or honor's college opportunities. If however you include good schools where your dc is near the top end....those schools may court your student and offer excellent opportunities and money. The school we ultimately chose was more middle of the road as far as the scores were concerned, but they offered ds honors and scholarship and research and everything his heart desired.

 

Well, I've blathered on far too long....time to call it a night.

[Kris in Wis]

Our dd is finishing her junior year and narrowing down her college list. She is a good student - will be National Merit commended (probably not finalist), but not interested in any of the large more exclusive schools. We are primarily looking at small Christian liberal arts schools.

 

 

 

Calvin College or Hope College in Michigan, both private, small, Christian, liberal arts. They are both in the top 50 of US News (I think that's the one!).

 

There's Wheaton in Illinois. My oldest applied to and was accepted there (National Merit winner), but declined. He eventually chose Calvin (better scholarship package and more of what he was looking for).

 

All of these schools are strongly academic and somewhat selective, if that's what you're looking for.

[CO MOM]

I think the other side of the coin is that most of the academic challenge and therefore excellence depends upon what the student makes of their experience. Almost every professor we spoke with made the point that students who are interested will gain the attention of their professors and will get the research opportunities and study helps and so on.

 

I definitely agree with this - this is what my dd has been told also by the professors she has visited and also what she has observed when visiting classes and outside of class opportunities. As with most things, it is what you make of it.

 

Thanks to all who have responded!

[SonshineLearner]

Hillsdale (is that what it's called? The one where the man who write Climbing Parnassus teaches? Or Saint Andrews....(a Reformed school) sound great to me!

Carrie:-)

[Paz]

Wheaton College in Wheaton IL.

 

I think it was named "The Harvard of Christian colleges."

 

http://www.wheaton.edu/welcome/

[Sandra in NC]

See pages 10-15 of this report concerning graduation rates for less competitive and highly competitive institutions.

 

http://www.aei.org/docLib/Diplomas%20and%20Dropouts%20final.pdf

 

The more competitive the college, the better the graduation rate. It's revealing to see who the top 10/bottom 10 are in each category.

[CO MOM]

Thanks for sharing this report - it is quite interesting and eye-opening! Another aspect to consider. I guess it makes sense if you think about it - the more academic and motivated a student is to get into college, the more motivated they would likely be to complete their degree.

[Sandra in NC]

I think it has a lot to do with peer group, too. My younger son is at the NC School of Science and Math, a public residential school. Average 10th grade SAT scores are 1350 (CR + Math). My son says that while some of the instructors are stellar, the real advantage to the school is the student population. It's inspiring to be surrounded by smart kids.

[Gwen in VA]

I think it has a lot to do with peer group, too.

 

A great argument for a student going to the strongest college he can -- given interests, finances, liking of the college and all those other variables.

[Orthodox6]

I used to be on faculty at Birmingham Southern College in Alabama. It is a small, Methodist, liberal arts school regarded as strong academically. I liked my time there !

 

I always have heard good things about Davidson, in North Carolina. It is a small Presbyterian (I think) college, also with strong academics.

[Grace is Sufficient]

but I only scanned quickly through responses.

 

I have heard from several sources that a school with a strong focus on faculty researching and publishing often shorts actual teaching and learning opportunities for undergrad students. So you may want to look for a place with a focus on teaching undergrads instead of a place with a national reputation and a 'publish or perish' mindset like the Ivy League schools.

[Sandra in NC]

I have not considered Davidson because it doesn't have an engineering school, although it has a wonderful reputation as a LAC. I've heard it is not homeschool-friendly.

[CO MOM]

I have heard from several sources that a school with a strong focus on faculty researching and publishing often shorts actual teaching and learning opportunities for undergrad students. So you may want to look for a place with a focus on teaching undergrads instead of a place with a national reputation and a 'publish or perish' mindset like the Ivy League schools.

 

This was an area I was wondering about as well - if the faculty has a real heart for teaching and encouraging their students, or if they are primarily using students to further their own interests and positions. One of the areas my dd is considering is media/film, and it seems that in some situations, the students are primarily used to work on the faculties' own projects rather than encouraged to pursue their own. I could see this happening with research as well. To learn and work alongside someone with more knowledge and experience can be good, but I could see that it also could be abused.