StillStanding Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 I need some wisdom from the Hive! I have been reading, and reading, and reading posts about “calculus†and I need help deciding what to use next year with my dd. Background Information: dd wants to go into Engineering (civil with environmental). She will be a senior next year. She has done all high school math with Saxon and is now completing Saxon Advanced Math. She has done very well with it but it has not been our favorite. We want to do something different for Calculus. She will not take the AP test. CC near us is pretty bad, so that is not an option for calculus. She just needs a program that prepares her well for College Calculus. She is a slow methodical student (I will be posting about that and ACT next). We need a program with clear instruction. She prefers instruction over just reading the book. I will try to do Calculus with her so I can help her with it if she gets stuck, but it has been 24 years since I have done Calculus. What would you recommend? Please let me know if you have opinions about the following: Larson has videos posted on http://www.larsoncalculus.com/calc10/content/proof-videos/ Would these videos offer enough instruction? Calculus: Concepts and Contexts by Steward (Rainbow Resources sells the textbook, solutions manual and instruction videos with Dr. Callahan). Forester What?? Thank you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanM Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Thinkwell has videos + problems, which my 2nd ds used. My dh hasn't been crazy about it, but it has helped to keep ds on track. My 1st ds and dh just used a textbook. I don't know anything about the other programs you listed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Derek Owens? He has videos and will correct problems and answer questions as well. There are also places like Wilson Hill that have actual live classes 2x/week (online). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Since her math up to this point is solid, and she is looking for an utterly different approach to calculus then she might enjoy some of these books. There are more casual books on calculus like Calculus Made Easy by Thompson which is very casual and conceptual, but doesn't require much output of a student. There is Calculus the Easy Way which introduces much of 1st year calculus conversationally but through a mildly-goofy Fantasy story. At the end of each chapter there are a handful of problems (and answers to all of them are in the back of the book). but when learning math, working lots of problems is idea so doing additional problems from The Humongous Book of Calculus Problems Translated for People Who Don't Speak Math would be a thorough, but low-pressure introduction to calculus for a high school student. If you instead want a "serious" or "real" calculus course, then get any edition of a book called Calculus Early Transcendentals (or however you spell that word) by by either Thomas or Stewart. These are "standard" calculus books used in engineering schools across the country and are fairly much the same thing. They cover the same topics in practically the exact same way. I happen to own the 11th and 7th editions of these texts, but an older edition can be gotten for pennies on the dollar. PatrickJMT is a YouTube channel where a university math professor solves several examples in various math courses. His calculus videos are based on Stewarts 7th edition, but given the over lap you could safely use them with just about any calculus course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillStanding Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 Since her math up to this point is solid, and she is looking for an utterly different approach to calculus then she might enjoy some of these books. There are more casual books on calculus like Calculus Made Easy by Thompson which is very casual and conceptual, but doesn't require much output of a student. There is Calculus the Easy Way which introduces much of 1st year calculus conversationally but through a mildly-goofy Fantasy story. At the end of each chapter there are a handful of problems (and answers to all of them are in the back of the book). but when learning math, working lots of problems is idea so doing additional problems from The Humongous Book of Calculus Problems Translated for People Who Don't Speak Math would be a thorough, but low-pressure introduction to calculus for a high school student. If you instead want a "serious" or "real" calculus course, then get any edition of a book called Calculus Early Transcendentals (or however you spell that word) by by either Thomas or Stewart. These are "standard" calculus books used in engineering schools across the country and are fairly much the same thing. They cover the same topics in practically the exact same way. I happen to own the 11th and 7th editions of these texts, but an older edition can be gotten for pennies on the dollar. PatrickJMT is a YouTube channel where a university math professor solves several examples in various math courses. His calculus videos are based on Stewarts 7th edition, but given the over lap you could safely use them with just about any calculus course. Hello Gil, I 'll start researching the Steward book you mention. I am assuming by your book title that it is not this one:https://www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/059418 Do you know if they are very different? I don't know anything about these books. The beauty of the one linked is that it has the video instruction from Dr.Callahan and they sell the solutions manual as well. I will look at the YouTube videos you are recommending. Do you think these videos are enough instruction to understand the material? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Hello Gil, :seeya: I 'll start researching the Steward book you mention. I am assuming by your book title that it is not this one:https://www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/059418. No, that is not the book that we use, but its perfectly suitable for High school calculus. Actually, that book is perfectly fine for even the first two semesters of university calculus too. Calculus is calculus. The scope and sequence is pretty standardized across the country, as far as I can tell. In my experience (limited strictly to my state, BTW) there are essentially 3 calculus classes taught at the the university level. I think the high schools typically teach just two levels of calculus and call them AB and BC, but someone else will be able to tell you if I'm wrong on that. Do you know if they are very different? I don't know anything about these books. No, they are not very different. Based on the table of contents I'm seeing that the book that you linked is pretty much the first 11 chapters of the Stewart book that I own and use with my kids. The Stewart text I use has 17 chapters so your book is good for Calculus 1 and Calculus 2, but not Calculus 3. My book covers calculus 1, calculus 2 and calculus 3 material. Calculus 1 is about derivatives with ONE variable. | Calculus AB at the high school level? Calculus 2 is about integrals with ONE variable. | Calculus BC at the high school level? Calculus 3 is about derivatives and integrals with TWO OR MORE variables. | I don't think there is a high school level for this one. From the table of contents the text you linked looks perfectly fine for your needs, and yes, the PatrickJMT videos would go with it just fine if you needed or wanted additional video-examples on the cheap. The beauty of the one linked is that it has the video instruction from Dr.Callahan and they sell the solutions manual as well. Well, from what I read on the RR website, the Ask Dr. Calahan DVDs only cover chapters 2, 3 and 4 of the text. Chapter 1 is review material so isn't included). Note that some Calc 1 classes would include the first few sections of chapter 5, but not all of them. As a comparison, PatrickJMT videos will cover all the lessons from chapters 1-11 of the text that you linked on RR. As for the Solutions Manual You'll have to check with RR if it's the STUDENTS solutions manual (Which only includes solutions to the odd problems) or a COMPLETE solutions manual (which include the solutions to even and odd problems). You can sometimes find sets of textbook +students solutions manual on eBay, so I'd check there for a lower price/better deal than RR. But I'm a bargain hunter. I will look at the YouTube videos you are recommending. You can find them at www.patrickJMT.com Do you think these videos are enough instruction to understand the material? Some might consider me a stickler (or a Math Nazi), but I never recommend that a student watch videos instead of reading the text, not at the high school level. In my opinion, all high schoolers should get used to reading through the lessons themselves. In my opinion, that is a fantastic habit to have. As a prospective Engineering student she will desperately need that ability sooner or later. Trust me, the sooner that she develops the skill and the stronger her reading-the-lesson-and-working-the-example-habit, the better. Get whichever text you can afford or prefer. But my advice is to always have her read the text and work the examples, then watch a PatrickJMT video on the same topic for more examples (and pause the video to write out and do those examples too), then do the problems at the end of the chapter. Try some home work problems. IF she's missing the practice problems, check a few in the solutions and re-do them. Then do more practice problems. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Math is NOT a spectator event. Neither are physics or chemistry. The sooner students learn and understand this and adjust their study habits accordingly, the better off they will be in their chosen majors. Way too many bright kids fail in Engineering school due to poor habits. Thank you! You're welcome. Question for the pros reading this: Does Calculus 2 have to include Polar/Conics to be considered "complete" or is that an "extra" topic that can be omitted? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Question for the pros reading this: Does Calculus 2 have to include Polar/Conics to be considered "complete" or is that an "extra" topic that can be omitted? Imo, those topics need to be included in a Calc 2 course 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I need some wisdom from the Hive! I have been reading, and reading, and reading posts about “calculus†and I need help deciding what to use next year with my dd. Background Information: dd wants to go into Engineering (civil with environmental). She will be a senior next year. She has done all high school math with Saxon and is now completing Saxon Advanced Math. She has done very well with it but it has not been our favorite. We want to do something different for Calculus. She will not take the AP test. CC near us is pretty bad, so that is not an option for calculus. She just needs a program that prepares her well for College Calculus. She is a slow methodical student (I will be posting about that and ACT next). We need a program with clear instruction. She prefers instruction over just reading the book. I will try to do Calculus with her so I can help her with it if she gets stuck, but it has been 24 years since I have done Calculus. What would you recommend? Please let me know if you have opinions about the following: Larson has videos posted on http://www.larsoncalculus.com/calc10/content/proof-videos/ Would these videos offer enough instruction? Calculus: Concepts and Contexts by Steward (Rainbow Resources sells the textbook, solutions manual and instruction videos with Dr. Callahan). Forester What?? Thank you! I have used the Larson textbook, Calculus for AP with great success. Larson has free online resources to support their various textbooks. Calc Chat provides solutions to the odd-numbered textbook problems. Calc View provides video instruction for the main topics in each chapter. What I like about this particular textbook is that at the end of each section are three questions worded similarly to questions found on the AP exam. In addition after each chapter review section, there is a another section of multiple choice and free response questions typical to those found on the AP exam. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillStanding Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 Question for the pros reading this: Does Calculus 2 have to include Polar/Conics to be considered "complete" or is that an "extra" topic that can be omitted? One more question:If the book I linked covers material for both Calculus 1 and Calculus 2, should we just try to do half the book for one credit of calculus. Our goal is for her to be ready for Calculus 1 in college (as you can tell I am clueless). Do you recommend doing all the problems in the lesson, only the odds...?? dd reads her books for Chemistry and Physics, but prefers video instruction for math. She does work out the example problems as D.I.V.E instructs but I do agree with you. She needs to get used to reading math books as well before she goes to college. The idea of reading the lesson first and then watching the corresponding video lesson- working the extra examples in the video- before working on the lesson's exercises seams like a good plan. Thank you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillStanding Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 I have used the Larson textbook, Calculus for AP with great success. Larson has free online resources to support their various textbooks. Calc Chat provides solutions to the odd-numbered textbook problems. Calc View provides video instruction for the main topics in each chapter. What I like about this particular textbook is that at the end of each section are three questions worded similarly to questions found on the AP exam. In addition after each chapter review section, there is a another section of multiple choice and free response questions typical to those found on the AP exam. We don't plan to take the AP test. Dd will start with Calculus 1 in college :) I will take a look at these two resources: Calc Chat provides solutions to the odd-numbered textbook problems. Calc View provides video instruction for the main topics in each chapter Thank your for the information! Gil mentioned that the Steward book would do a good job preparing a student for an Engineering career, do you know if Larson does a good job as well? I have a McKay's store a bout 40 minutes away so my next step will be checking what calculus books they have :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 We don't plan to take the AP test. Dd will start with Calculus 1 in college :) I will take a look at these two resources: Calc Chat provides solutions to the odd-numbered textbook problems. Calc View provides video instruction for the main topics in each chapter Thank your for the information! Gil mentioned that the Steward book would do a good job preparing a student for an Engineering career, do you know if Larson does a good job as well? I have a McKay's store a bout 40 minutes away so my next step will be checking what calculus books they have :) . Yes, the Larson book will definitely prepare a student for calculus in college. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 One more question:If the book I linked covers material for both Calculus 1 and Calculus 2, should we just try to do half the book for one credit of calculus. Our goal is for her to be ready for Calculus 1 in college (as you can tell I am clueless). Do you recommend doing all the problems in the lesson, only the odds...?? Making true recommendations that specific for a perfectly good stranger are hard. But let's see if we can't generate the kind of questions and answers that will help you and HER decide what she needs to do to prepare? What is she like as a math student? How long does she spend on math each day? When she makes them, what are her errors like? How is she at finding and correcting the errors? How fluent is she in the math that she's covered up to this point? How long does it take her to complete 10 "routine" procedures such as simplifying, factoring, solving or graphing functions whether they are linear, quadratic, rational, trigonometric, exponential or logarithmic? How are her graphing abilities? Can she easily graph each of the types of functions that I listed above (in brown)? What about when they have transformations applied to them? Can she fluently determine things like minima/maxima, end behavior, and asymptotic behavior of functions from either the function or the graph? I ask because it's usually simple things like fractions (which were never properly understood to begin with) OR the algebraic skills that should've been mastered but weren't that messes up students in the higher level mathematics. It's easy for many students to "get" algebra and correctly perform the processes at that time. But it's harder to master algebra because once kids feel like they "get it" they don't want to have to do it over and over again. But for most, it's the doing it over and over again across the long term that lets them keep the algebra. dd reads her books for Chemistry and Physics, but prefers video instruction for math. She does work out the example problems as D.I.V.E instructs but I do agree with you. She needs to get used to reading math books as well before she goes to college. The idea of reading the lesson first and then watching the corresponding video lesson- working the extra examples in the video- before working on the lesson's exercises seams like a good plan. Thank you :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillStanding Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 StillStanding, on 15 Mar 2018 - 3:04 PM, said: Sorry it took so long to respond, been kind of busy. One more question: If the book I linked covers material for both Calculus 1 and Calculus 2, should we just try to do half the book for one credit of calculus. Our goal is for her to be ready for Calculus 1 in college (as you can tell I am clueless). Do you recommend doing all the problems in the lesson, only the odds...?? Making true recommendations that specific for a perfectly good stranger are hard. Yep! After I posted, I realized you kind of answered my question: Dr. Callahan thinks Chapter 2-4 cover Calculus 1. So, do you think that Chapters 2-4 would be enough preparation to take Calculus 1 in college? But let's see if we can't generate the kind of questions and answers that will help you and HER decide what she needs to do to prepare? What is she like as a math student? She is a slow methodical student. How long does she spend on math each day? About 1.5 hours for ~25 problems When she makes them, what are her errors like? Doesn’t make many mistakes, but when she does she goes back and figures it out herself. How is she at finding and correcting the errors? How fluent is she in the math that she's covered up to this point? She has done very well with Saxon How long does it take her to complete 10 "routine" procedures such as simplifying, factoring, solving or graphing functions whether they are linear, quadratic, rational, trigonometric, exponential or logarithmic? I really don’t know how long it takes her. I have not timed her :confused1: How are her graphing abilities? Can she easily graph each of the types of functions that I listed above (in brown)? What about when they have transformations applied to them? linear, quadratic, rational She is good at these trigonometric, exponential or logarithmic She has learned how to do these this year. She has been graphing them; including transformations. She still has problems with logarithmic functions, I don’t think Saxon does a good job explaining logarithms so we will spend some time this summer with Lial or Blitzer pre-calculus (purchased used this year). Can she fluently determine things like minima/maxima, end behavior, and asymptotic behavior of functions from either the function or the graph? I am not familiar with this wording. I ask because it's usually simple things like fractions (which were never properly understood to begin with) OR the algebraic skills that should've been mastered but weren't that messes up students in the higher level mathematics. She is good with fractions and with algebra. She had a hard time factoring but after we learned the “British Method†she has not had any other problems with it. It's easy for many students to "get" algebra and correctly perform the processes at that time. But it's harder to master algebra because once kids feel like they "get it" they don't want to have to do it over and over again. But for most, it's the doing it over and over again across the long term that lets them keep the algebra. Well, I would say that with Saxon we get to do it over and over and over again :mellow: dd reads her books for Chemistry and Physics, but prefers video instruction for math. She does work out the example problems as D.I.V.E instructs but I do agree with you. She needs to get used to reading math books as well before she goes to college. The idea of reading the lesson first and then watching the corresponding video lesson- working the extra examples in the video- before working on the lesson's exercises seams like a good plan. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) After I posted, I realized you kind of answered my question: Dr. Callahan thinks Chapter 2-4 cover Calculus 1. So, do you think that Chapters 2-4 would be enough preparation to take Calculus 1 in college? Yes, chapters 2-4 will make up the bulk of a college calculus 1 class and completing those chapters will put her in good standing for college level calculus 1, but if her foundation is truly solid (and it sounds like it is) then I would do chapters 2-5 at a minimum. However, if a student who hopes to major in engineering has both the requisite skills fully mastered and time to do so, then I recommend that student do as much calculus as possible before university. At the engineering schools, Calculus 2 was known as the "hard" calculus, I had a professor admit that calculus 2 was kind of a weed out class and was told that those students who got through calculus 2 with a solid grade, usually did well in calculus 3. Those who scraped by in Calculus 2, bombed calculus 3 at much higher rates, because the bulk of calculus 3, requires student solve calculus 1 and 2 problems reliably, as a part of longer problems. If she can get through chapters 2-6, and as much of 8 as possible, then that'll set her up to succeed in the 3 courses of calculus she'll need as part of her degree. At the university, they'll be going through the material at a much faster pace as they cover this stuff, so it'll help a lot if she's seen much of it before hand. So, if her foundation is solid, she shouldn't struggle much with calculus and will have an easier time working steadily through that book that you linked. Edited March 19, 2018 by Gil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillStanding Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Very hepfull! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad S Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 From what I read about your goals and student's background, I would probably go with one of the Larson/Larson and Edwards calculus books with the associated videos. You can read my review of many of the books in the pinned Homeschool High School Math post for more detail. The book is one of the clearer texts and the associated videos that I've seen were good, and lots of students have found them very clear and helpful. If you have access to the Teaching Company videos at your library, presented by Edwards, they match the text well and are among the highest rated of all the Teaching Company videos on any subject, sometimes the very highest. The Larson Calculus for AP textbook that snowbeltmom mentioned above would work equally well for a non-AP student; it is written a bit more for a high school student, which I think helps with the transition. There is no need to get the latest version, especially since your student won't be taking the AP test, and it's not essential to be matched exactly to the latest test. The material is very similar. Although Stewart's calculus books are often used in engineering and physical science program, it seems to me that it's more because the material "is in there" as asked for by schools rather than it being a clear text. It seems to me it's a bit like public schools using a specific-state-version of math texts since the company was willing to tailor the text to the state department of public instruction (rather than it being the best-written math text). Given how many colleges use it, however, getting a cheaper earlier version might be useful as a second text if you wanted to do that. Foerster's calculus was mentioned. It's pretty straightforward and seems a reasonable option for a high school student. It doesn't get as far as some of the other texts, so you should be aware of that. That's in stark contrast to his precalculus book which is one of the more advanced precalculus books and pretty complete -- it does a nice job of getting the student ready for calculus. I'm not sure about videos to go along with it. The pinned thread on High School Math may have some videos that go along with the text, but I haven't used those. Thomas was also mentioned. The explanations seem more clear to me than Stewart, and there is an older high school version, but I don't know anything about videos to go along with it. Finally, KhanAcademy.org has free videos and online problems linked with the videos -- I haven't looked at them for awhile, but they were good and getting better. My DS liked the Khan videos better than the AskDrCallahan videos for the two courses we used (though I don't think they're bad at all). I definitely like the texts Dr. Callahan chose for algebra and geometry more than those he chose for algebra 2/trig and calculus. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Inman Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Foerster's calculus was mentioned. It's pretty straightforward and seems a reasonable option for a high school student. It doesn't get as far as some of the other texts, so you should be aware of that. That's in stark contrast to his precalculus book which is one of the more advanced precalculus books and pretty complete -- it does a nice job of getting the student ready for calculus. I'm not sure about videos to go along with it. Math without Borders has videos to go along with Foerster's. We've used them for Alg 2 and have liked them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewpeaceful Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Ahhh.... a fellow mom of a budding civil engineer.... or is that mechanical.... depends on the day and what has her excited. lol. Okay, so I am 1 math year behind you but have been researching the Precalc / calc issue a lot lately. I have a few options for you, one I think was already suggested: Derek Owens has AP Calc to prep for the Calc AB exam. $59 per month for his curriculum, video teaching, and grading. He has a half price option if you want to do your own grading. LeTourneau has a Calc 1 class as distance learning. $270 plus text. And if your daughter is interested in attending there, they offer a $16,000 scholarship just for doing a dual credit with them. :) Cedarville also offers a dual enrollment calc class for engineering calc. Too many questionable reviews of Thinkwell for engineering students: lack of applied math practice. Great for non-engineering / non-math / non-physics majors. It has its place in the curriculum line up. Out of curiosity, what did you do for physics. We need honors physics that isn't AP physics. This class is killing me. We are leaning toward Derek Owens honors physics class. I am open to other ideas if you had success this past year. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Math U See has a nice Calculus course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Derek Owens, Derek Owens, Derek Owens. His calculus course is totally excellent. I know this because I took it myself and then used what I learned to teach my son who was taking AP Calculus at the public high school (with a less than stellar teacher). DO was trained as an engineer, and you can tell that he thinks that way. I highly recommend DO for budding engineers in particular because of this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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